Blowout becomes a mess
 

Girls Varsity. Team A is up by 20, wants an intentional called with 8 seconds left, doesn't get it. Trail is right in front of A's bench. Trail hears a male voice yell "You're un****ing believable" from the bench. Could not have been the players (girls), trainer or head coach (women), no spectators behind the bench, so it leaves one the three male assistants. Trail spins around instantly but all three have their poker faces on. Trail blows whistle, walks to table and announces a T on the head coach, she then loses it. By now the lead is over at the table to get him out of there but before he does, head coach says "How can you call that on me, I didn't say it" to which the trail tells the head coach she's in charge of the bench, that's why she picked it up. As that is happening, one of the assistants gets in the way and says "get this dumbass (unfortunately I'm pretty sure he was referring to my partner) out of here". I'm now over in the area while trying to keep on eye on the players. As my partners are coming to meet with me away from the bench, I hear another one of the assistants yell directly at us "What a f***ing joke". We discuss that we now have two more technicals and an ejection. I go to report what we have, the bench all of a sudden calmed down, coach leaves, we shoot the free throws and finish the game.

The whole thing took us by surprise since they hadn't said a word the entire game and the foul they wanted was for an accidental jersey grab.
Afterwards we discussed the situation at length and discussed variations and other questions. What is the most effective way to deal with a bench issue that merits a technical but cannot be attributed to an individual? Would you have a flagrant for the original comment?

In my area, the f-bomb like that merits a flagrant if it's loud enough to be heard by the players. I'm sure in some areas it doesn't.

As for how to handle the situation where you can't identify which said it, I'm curious to hear from the more experienced folks how they'd handle this.

Stupid end to a blowout - I hate it when things go bad like that, but nothing you could do but call the Ts and go on your way.

NCAA (at least NCAAW) gives the option of assessing a "bench" T -- and an indirect to the coach. I don't think it's specifically mentioned ion FED, but I'm not sure it's not a good idea.

Since you can't identify the original voice of the 1st F-bomb, I have just a bench T. If I could ID that person, it's a flagrant T. As for the other T's, all good in my opinion. The only way to prevent them is to try to get away from the bench ASAP.

Where to begin.

First off, call the bench T, give the HC an indirect.

Second, get away from the darn bench.

If a second or third T gets given make sure it's obvious that the bench earned it. If you are too close it gives the perception you are baiting them, if you are across the court it becomes obvious who is causing the situation.

Get together, sort out what gets shot where, at a distance and then go tell the HC she has a seat for the indirect caused by her assistant...if you had the foul call that started the mess even better, because then you can explain why you didn't have an intentional to the HC.

I think your partner should have called a T on the bench in general, give the head coach an indirect with the seatbelt, and get the ball into play for the shots as quickly as possible. If all three refs are paying attention to the bench to help prevent further outbursts, and the ball gets back into play, sometimes , sometimes these sorts of messes can be prevented.

Yep, I'm a firm believer that bad things tend to happen when the ball is dead....

We were all over the original call. The calling official reported the foul and answered a very calm question from the head coach, which apparently one of the assistants did not like the response. As he went to report the technical he began to second guess his rules knowledge (he's almost too familiar with NCAA rules, specifically NCAAW) and was unsure of the NFHS rule if any on bench technicals. The rest happened very quickly, the second technical was unavoidable, the assistant got in the lead's path on the court as he was coming to get the trail out of there (trail was already leaving) Our conversation then took place past center court opposite the bench. On the tape you can clearly see the assistant (unfortunately not hear him) step towards us and throw his hands up in our direction. I agree that often a mess can be contained to the original problem but this was an avalanche of dumbness. Fortunately I didn't have to explain anything, as I had said in the OP, once I walked over from our huddle, the bench had calmed down and the head coach was already walking out of the gym. During our conversation afterwards we were unable to find the rule which would allow a bench technical.

Or even when it's live :o ......... Over the years, I've tried to develop a 'deaf ear' (not too difficult for me, since my hearing IS diminished), but in certain situations, such as the OP, it seems that if the poster could've just "not heard" the remark, things would've been much better......Once they've "gotten my attention", then we've got a whole new situation.

You're kidding, right?

Most definitely we don't want to have rabbit ears, but each of the comments in the OP deserve to be assessed with a technical foul.

No, things would be much worse. You just showed the whole bench, the opposing team, your partners and everybody in the crowd that could hear that remark that you are severely lacking in testicular fortitude.

Saying that any official should ever ignore demeaning, profane remarks like that is absolutely ridiculous. Methinks that this officiating racket is not really meant for you, podner.

Another 'Old School' alias.

Please, God, make the bad voices stop!

I have closely perused the NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's rules and it is my humble oppinion that these situations are handled the same both sets of rules.

Addressing your first situation is to charge the HC-A with a Direct TF. Not withstanding my position concerning Team Captains, the Head Coach is the one, by rule, that receives either a Direct TF or Indirect TF's for TF's committed by Bench Personnel. When the official does not know which Bench Personnel member committed the unsportsmanlike conduct, the Head Coach is the one that is holding the short straw and has to receive a Direct TF. The problem I have in this situation is that F-bombs, in my humble opinion, are Flagrant TF's; and I would like to be charging the Bench Personnel member who actually dropped the F-bomb to receive the Direct TF that is a Flagrant TF.

Addressing your second situation: This is definitely a Direct TF against the A1C-A (and if HC-A's Direct TF was not a Flagrant TF, then we have an Indirect TF against HC-A; one Direct TF and one Indirect TF, if you are keeping score at home) and if I would be very very inclined to consider A1C-A's TF a Flagrant TF.

Addressing your third situation: This is definitely a Direct TF against the A2C-A and is most definitely Flagrant TF (and if HC-A's Direct TF was not a Flagrant TF, then we have an Indirect TF against HC-A; one Direct TF and two Indirect TF's, if you are keeping score at home). This means HC-A is disqualified and ejected for having one Direct TF and two Indirect TF's.

Therefore: HC-A is disqualified and ejected for accumulating one Direct TF and two Indirect TF's; A1C-A is ejected for receiving one Direct TF which was a Flagrant TF; and A2C-A is ejected for receiving one Direct TF which was a Flagrant TF. Team B will shoot six (6) free throws. AND now comes the fun part: Who gets the ball for the throw-in after the free throws are shot and from what spot is the throw-in taken. It appears that for once all three Rules codes agree: Team B gets the ball for a throw-in at the division line opposite the Scorer's/Timer's Table.

Having written all I have written and I was the R, I would poll my partners as to whether we should just forfeit the game to Team B rathing than shoot all of those free throws because the Team A's coaching staff had obviously lost their composure to say the least.

MTD, Sr.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME??!!

MTD, Sr.

My sentiments exactly Mark. In the situation in the OP there was no real viable option. When this crap happens it's best to just take care of business - saves a lot of grief in the long run..........

Mark,
Let's say the HC had previously been ejected, do we then have to pick a new HC among the other two, and thus apply the next AC's TF against the other indirectly?

Snaqwells:

Yes.

Why are you up so late? LOL I am watching the rebroadcast of Olbermann.

MTD, Sr.

I'm on Mountain time, it ain't so late here. ;)
I'm away from home in a hotel room in Denver. I'm not watching anything in particular on TV (nothing's really on).

Snaqwells:

I just answered you post about free throws. I am going to bed. Have a good one and stay away from the certain type of pay per view movies. LOL

MTD, Sr.

:D Our (Colorado Air National Guard) local contract has me in a hotel that does not have that option. It's a bit cheaper this way, and comes with free internet access, a fridge, and a microwave. Beats the heck out of $9.99 per day for internet access, no appliances, $30 room service, and optional $13 movies (our 2nd option when this particular establishment is full). ;)

Withstanding your position, why <b>don't</b> you give the captain a technical foul instead of the head coach?

'Splain that one.:D

Just curious: If A only had three coaches, and this situation happens, would it be an automatic forfeit since they no longer have anyone available to coach? Can a school administrator take over?

JR:

Because the Rules state that the Head Coach is the Bench Personnel member that receives the punishment for Bench Personnel misconduct.

MTD, Sr.

1. I see that you said the act was accidental, but it is still a foul and there was a POE a few years back that said to call it intentional. The bench had a right to be upset, but not to conduct themselves in the manner in which they did. Just because there is only eight seconds remaining in a twenty point game that doesn't mean that you should stop calling the game correctly.

2. Since you are certain that the original comment came from one of the three male assistant coaches, you should have one of them removed and pin the flagrant technical foul on that individual. How do you go about doing that? You inform the head coach that she needs to have whichever one of her assistants said that remark leave and you aren't continuing the game until that happens. If you don't get quick compliance, tell the coach that you will have to suspend the game at this point and file a report with the appropriate governing body.
"Now coach, do you really want that to happen? The (appropriate governing body) could strip you of this win and declare the game a forfeit. Don't let it come to that and just have him leave. Thanks." (walk away now and watch asst coach leave, then resume game)

I'm 99% certain that this will work. I've used the tactic before under similar circumstances.

You can be almost assured the AC who dropped the second F bomb probably dropped the first as well. At least that has been my experience.

1. I understand that my description of the original foul wasn't very good. The defender had her hand out playing good defense, A1 made a move towards her and B1 gave her a push. A1's momentum kept going with B1's hand stuck there. My partner was not going to calling that an intentional foul as he had already called the push. From a game management position I could see calling an intentional, but at that point B1 had not tried to foul to stop the clock yet and the push was called, it just ended ugly with a handful of jersey. I agree you can't stop calling the game in that situation.

2. My partner discussed the possibility of using a similar strategy but 1) Didn't want to spend anymore time over there than necessary. 2) Wanted to properly apply NFHS rules (only none of us were certain). Our assignor has taken issue to his college officials using NCAA rules or making up rules.

3. We could have had more flagrant technicals for the second and third comments however the R was the first to admit that he didn't want to run the risk of running the whole bench ( code for he didn't want to add to the paperwork ).

4. We discussed a forefit and decided that since the bench had almost immediately cooled down after the last outburst and everyone took a seat, that we wouldn't take that route.

As a follow-up to the situation, after our report was submitted, we received an e-mail from the coach apologizing for "ruining" the game (she also sent this to the other team). She acknowledged that there was no intentional foul and that she should have had better control over her bench. The school "asked" the head coach to "remove" two of the assistants. The head coach also sat out a game. It turns out that the original comment came from a guy who had a grudge from about 5 years ago against the calling official when this joker used to be a head coach (this coming from the AD, who didn't like the guy in the first place). My partner had no idea.

Assignor reviewed the tape and the report and didn't have any problems with our decisions. The funny thing is that when we asked him about a rules backing for a direct t to the head coach for anonymous bench conduct, he was unable to come up with one.

My responses in Red.

Nevada, in response to your post above - if the foul was for illegal contact prior to the grabbing of the jersey, then wouldn't an IF have been the wrong call? That seems to be what he indicated in his post - that the foul was for contact prior to the grabbing, which means the jersey grab was dead ball contact...

"the push was called, it just ended ugly with a handful of jersey"

The way I understand this, it was one continuous act. I would penalize the according to the most severe aspect of the play. That's the handful of jersey.

Nevada...I've got to agree with you on most everything...

Apparently I'm the one confusing you with my description, let's try this B 's hand got stuck almost "in" the jersey, after the whistle had blown for the push. Obviously it won't make sense unless you see it, but there really was not an intentional foul there.

We did take the chicken way out with the other t's but I think the other thing that crossed the R's mind was that the f-bomb does not merit an automatic flagrant in our area. Obviously given the climate of the situation, I think those were flagrants. We were doing a disservice to our fellow officials that work HS games on a regular basis.

What if the head coach hadn't gone along with your request? Now you're threatening a forefit, which would be allowable if they were failing to comply with a technical foul. But in my opinion you haven't issued a valid technical at that point (not on a specific person) and you've also issued an invalid ultimatum. Granted at this point there's no NFHS rules concerning this.

I agree that the NFHS needs to address these types of situations, bench decorum keeps on getting worse every year, especially from the assistants and other bench personnel. Adopting the NCAA rule would work for me.

An ejection is in order. However, ejecting the Head Coach is an injustice because obviously she didn't do it. I would:

1. Ask the Head Coach who did it. If she didn't know. Check with the Table they might be able to point you in the right direction..

2.I would get the three Asst. Coaches together (if I'm 100% certain one of them is the culprit) and ask the guilty one to fess up.

3. If the offender doesn't step forward I would tell them I'm going to pick one and he will be the one ejected. Hopefully peer pressure will cause the guilty one to step forward.

4. If not I pick one at random and go from there.

I'm glad I wasn't there.

So in order to give "justice" to the head coach we're going to take a chance on doing an injustice to a possibly not guilty Assistiant coach ?

So you're going to dump the Head Coach knowing that she's not the culprit. That's probably what caused the sh**house in the first place. In all probability one of the assistants will fess up. If they don't... oh well.

The HC wasn't dumped until the third bench T (one direct, and two indirects.)

Mark: agree with just about everything you wrote up until the forfeit part. Even under this sitch, don't. Travesty and refusal to play are about (there may be a few others -- like threats, but not this) the only things that are going to lead to an actual forfeit. The remedy here is the game report.

Don't compound a bad situation that you have nothing to do with by making yourself a target for criticism. You can justify all your calls, even if the judgment was questionable. If you forfeit this game, the coaches now have the "ability" to dodge any discussion of their behavior by bringing this up, and SOMEONE, justified or not, will listen. In other words, don't stretch a forfeit -- you either have good grounds for it, or you don't do it. If you have to ask, don't.

Texas:

I probably should have written my feelings more clearly. The R has the final authority as to whether to forfeit a game or not to forfeit a game. If I am the R, while I have the final authority, unless I am working with a real moron, I will not take that action unilaterally. I will get together with my partners and we will discuss whether we need to forfeit the game or not, that is what I meant by polling my partners. But acting in the way the coaches did in this game surely comes close to being a travesty. Their conduct was completely unacceptable.

Item (1): I don't understand this position. Why in Hades name would I care about any criticism I receive. Do you think I really care what some Howler Monkey Coach thinks or any irrational fan or an idiot sports reporter thinks.

Item (2): This statement makes no sense. Who made the forfeiture possible? Why our friendly Howler Monkey Coaches, thats who. The only people who are going to have any sympathy to the coaches are the irrational fans and idiot sports reporters.

If you are afraid of criticism from Howler Monkey Coaches, irrational fans, and/or idiot sports reporters, then my advice to you is to find another advocation because sports officiating is not for you.

MTD, Sr.

Well the HC is responsible for the bench personnel. The bench personnel aren't responsible for the HC.

I've read the OP several times and here is what I "get" or don't get.

1st T on bench-no dumping of coach-seatbelted.
2nd T on bench-
3rd T on bench-coach leaves now.


So if I am reading this right it doesn't matter who got charged with the 1st T cause we now have 3 and the coach is done.

If I'm wrong about this I am open to being educated.

I don't think I'm going to spend alot of time going Columbo on who said what .

I'm talking about criticism from your assignor, board, state association, etc., and I'm a little surprised you would think I meant anyone else. In other words, criticism that makes a difference in your schedule, advancement, playoff game assignments, etc. Forfeiture is such a drastic action that its one of those things that has to be an absolute no brainer, or you are going to get yourself is a boatload of trouble. At least, where I am, you will.

I realize the coaches' actions are what lead to your bringing up the forfeiture, but you are the one handing down the remedy and if it doesn't fit the crime, the focus CAN be put on you. All I'm saying is don't give them that chance. If you have minimal time left in any game and continuing play would not represent a security risk, then I'd be hard pressed to think of a situation where a forfeit is necessary. I'm sure there are things we can all come up with given time that would lead to one, but coaches cussing at refs doesn't come anywhere close.

If you knew me for even 5 minutes, you would never have been able to type straight enough to get that last paragraph out. My wife and close friends would die laughing hearing that.

Texas:

Your latest post leads me to believe that you are afraid of your assignor, your local association, and your state association. A head coach and his two of his three assistants, of a team who is winning by 20 points with just 8 secons left in the game, go absolutely wild. I didn't say that a forfeit was an absolute in this case. In 37 years of officiating I have been involved in two forfeits at the H.S. level (both JV games) and ended one VAR game with less than 10 seconds left in the game when fans spilled onto the court. I was the R in of the JV games and the U in the other JV and the VAR game.

I am not advocating a blanket decision to forfeit the game. Each situation has its own dynamics. Did the AD or Pricipal of the team involved get to the bench area and take control of their coaches like they should have done, or did they take their coaches side and interfere with your game administration. Those are just a couple of things that an officiating crew would discuss before forfeiting a game. I think that you are making a mountain out of a mole hill about my comments concerning a possible forfeit.

As I said in my first post, if the conditions warrant certain action and you do not take it because you are afraid of being criticized for taking that action by your superiors, then you have idiots for superiors, and you need to reevaluate your situation and if you are really cut out for this type of avocation.

MTD, Sr.

Other Possible Calls
 

We would have had to be there to comment on the correct call, but, again, without being there, from the post, it appears that the push came before the jersey tug. Is it possible that once the whistle was blown for the push, that the defender could have been pulling on the jersey to prevent the offensive player from falling down?

Also, is it possible to have two separate calls here, a common foul for the push, and a technical intentional foul for the jersey tug during the dead ball immediately after the first foul? We're not supposed to ignore intentional or flagrant fouls during dead ball periods.

Again, I guess that you had to be there?

Yea, during a youth league I was working, I called a T on a coach saying that I was a F'en idiot, I called the T and him and I got into a little dispute. Afterwords, my partner told me after calling a T get away from the area. Take another spot. If they have a question, they can call a timeout and ask politely, if not, after the games works as well.

But yea, the whole problem had to suck. I hate when things go like that. I would handle it like this. Since we don't have a Bench T I would call an indirect T on the coach; next I would have both coaches report to the table and lay down the ground rules. I would say "Ok, I want this game under control. I don't want to hear another word out of anyones mouth. If you have a question, ask, but don't shout or course."

After words, call a tight game. Calling a tight game early normally gets rid of all problems during the second half. Let me know what you guys think.

Thanks

There's no need to get away from a coach that said that because he should have gotten tossed for a flagrant T.

Is that because you'd personally let him stay and coach anyway, and wander while doing so?

Your R is crazy. Your final thought is correct.
Three things:
1. I never said that I would forfeit the game. I said that I would suspend the contest and file a report. I can make an educated guess that the state office woud forfeit the game.
2. If the HC doesn't comply just pin the FTF on one of the three individuals that you believe said it. Afterall it is your decision who you believe is the culprit as the official is the arbiter of facts for the game. Then make sure to put it all in the report.
3. Yeah, it's not definitely covered, so 2-3 could be used to justify any reasonable decision.

No, things would've been EASIER. And an unsportsmanlike and flagrant F-bomb would've gone unrecognized and unpunished.

My only problem would be knowing if the comment came from the bench or out of the stands. If it's clear it's from the bench, I think a bench technical is quite appropriate and NFHS rules clearly allow this. If I'm not sure it's from the bench, I'm probably getting it in play as quickly as possible.

I thought if the Head Coach was ejected, he is gone; the assist coach is left in charge, but he is STILL the assist coach? We is not allowed to get up and all that other crap that goes with it as being an assist.

We had a problem like that not too long ago where the head coach was ejected in the first quarter and the asst. coach had to finish the game, but he couldn't stand or anything because he was the asst?

Let me know if I am right or wrong or way off topic?!?

He called you what?

Boom, gone, thanks for coming, parting gifts on the way to the car.

Huh?

In most "coaching box" states, the HC is seatbelted after receiving a direct or indirect technical foul. So if the HC got ejected, someone has to fill the role, but he doesn't get a coaching box because the technical foul earlier removed the box for the team for the game. That is, unless your state has gone off in a different direction from the NFHS.

It wouldn't surprise me if my state has. But I know after the first T they are benched, the second they are gone. But I knew the asst coach took over, but he was still benched b/c he is still asst but just having to finish the game. I dunno, I will contact one of our board members and see what he has to say.

Thanks