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-   -   Over and Back by stepping out of "bounds" (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/40762-over-back-stepping-out-bounds.html)

Ch1town Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbilla
Sideline YES. Division line, how can you have a BC violation if the ball never went to the BC?

:eek: :confused: :eek:

I don't have my rulebook with me, but does the section covering BC even reference "dribbler"? I suspect it doesn't....
Have I really been officiating this play incorrectly all this time? Or do you have a misunderstanding of 4-4-1... that is the question.

BTW, how I interpreted the OP there was no interupted dribble, everything was done purposely

kbilla Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town
Have I really been officiating this play incorrectly all this time? Or do you have a misunderstanding of 4-4-1... that is the question.

BTW, how I interpreted the OP there was no interupted dribble, everything was done purposely
I am trying to envision the caseplay that covers this play on the sideline and makes it a violation..I actually don't believe that I have ever seen the play described in the OP in 14 years....when would A1 have time to leave the ball, go BC, and then return and continue the dribble without B1,2,3,4,5 going the other way with it?

Ch1town Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbilla
I know this is true for OOB, but is it also true for BC? I didn't think that it was...anybody have the case play?
Dont have a case play, but the backcourt consists of the entire division line. Meaning, if you step on it then you have backcourt status... just like OOB.
Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure they will) :D

kbilla Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:46pm
The more I think about this, this does have to be a violation....otherwise you could have the same play I described in a prior post where a dribbler runs along the division line, stepping on the line after pushing the ball to the floor each time, then re-establishing in the FC before contacting the ball again...absent an interuppted dribble which I agree there does not appear to be in the OP, this is a violation...sorry Ch1town, this is what I get for trying to post while talking to the phone company!

Ch1town Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:54pm
It's all good, just want to make sure that we are all making the correct call in those situations. Because whenever the dribbler is in the frontcourt & they b a r e l y touch the division line, well, I gotta violation.

Ch1town Thu Jan 03, 2008 01:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loudwhistle
Bpb,
THis is why I posted this situation, I didn't think it was a violation in regards to backcourt or anything else but I wanted to put it to the acid test of this forum. I had a similar thing happen 2 weeks ago, team blue has front court status and then an interrupted dribble results in the ball rolling towards the half court line, a blue player runs up and reaches down and rolls the ball back into frontcourt, as he is making this "saving" roll he jumps across the halfcourt line but is clearly not touching the ball when he crosses the line, I did not call backcourt even though some of the fans were screaming overandback.
Are you sure they weren't saying "over the back" :D
Besides 3 seconds (on a throw-in mind you) that's one of their favorites.

Coltdoggs Thu Jan 03, 2008 04:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust
It all depends on whether you cosider the dribble "interrupted" or not.

If it is an interrupted dribble, it is no violation as the ball never gains BC status.

If not an interrupted dribble, it is a violation because the ball gains BC status when the dribbler steps in the BC, even if they're not touching the ball at the moment they touch the BC...if the player in the BC is in control of the ball, the ball is in the BC. The ball doesn't have to touch in BC to gain BC status....either the player or the ball can give the ball BC status.
So you are saying even tho dribbling player's feet went into BC and then came back into FC, not touching the ball during this time of BC....because of no interrupted dribble, this is still a controlled dribble thus a BC violation....interesting...

As Cam Rust says....I think the determining factor here is does the official deem it an interrupted dribble or not.

So that begs me to ask....What's the written rule read on interrupted dribble...whats the written definition? (I'll take a Vet's explanation too) Does it have to be touched by the opposing team, can a mishandled crossover dribble that the dribble regains control of constititue interrupted...what the rule book say?

kbilla Thu Jan 03, 2008 04:43pm
"An interrupted dribble occurs when the ball is loose after deflecting off the dribbler or after it momentarily gets away from the dribbler. There is no player control during an interrupted dribble." 4.15.5

In the OP I would argue that it didn't "get away" from the dribbler, she intentionally left it there, therefore her dribble continues...

Ch1town Thu Jan 03, 2008 04:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coltdoggs
So you are saying even tho dribbling player's feet went into BC and then came back into FC, not touching the ball during this time of BC....because of no interrupted dribble, this is still a controlled dribble thus a BC violation....interesting...

If the dribbler steps OOB (not touching the ball during this time) is that not OOB?

As Cam Rust says....I think the determining factor here is does the official deem it an interrupted dribble or not.

In the OP it looks like, not.

So that begs me to ask....What's the written rule read on interrupted dribble...whats the written definition?

4-15-5

(I'll take a Vet's explanation too) Does it have to be touched by the opposing team,

No, that would "end" the dribble per 4-15-4(d)

can a mishandled crossover dribble that the dribble regains control of constititue interrupted...what the rule book say?
I believe the book says yes, again, per 4-15-5

Coltdoggs Thu Jan 03, 2008 04:56pm
Ch1town....I think you are bustin' my chops....;)

Yes, IMO they are OOB, but once restablished inbound, they can get the ball...weather or not they can resume dribble depends on what happened before that action that put them OOB...I'm trying to think if I worded this or am thinking this thru logically...(gotta see it!)

So I think we are all working towards the grand question...Was this an interrupted dribble or no? ;)

Camron Rust Thu Jan 03, 2008 04:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coltdoggs
So you are saying even tho dribbling player's feet went into BC and then came back into FC, not touching the ball during this time of BC....because of no interrupted dribble, this is still a controlled dribble thus a BC violation....interesting...
Yep.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coltdoggs
As Cam Rust says....I think the determining factor here is does the official deem it an interrupted dribble or not.

So that begs me to ask....What's the written rule read on interrupted dribble...whats the written definition? (I'll take a Vet's explanation too) Does it have to be touched by the opposing team, can a mishandled crossover dribble that the dribble regains control of constititue interrupted...what the rule book say?
SECTION 15 DRIBBLE
ART. 5 . . . An interrupted dribble occurs when the ball is loose after deflecting off the dribbler or after it momentarily gets away from the dribbler. There is no player control during an interrupted dribble.


The language of the rule is consitent with the dribbler inadvertently losing control of the ball. It is not an intentional act. A player that pushes the ball to the floor is either dribbling or passing....although it still could become an interrupted dribble if that player then can't get to the ball after pushing it to the floor.

It also doesn't require the involvement of any other player. If another player is involved, the dribble ends when touched by the other player and then it is merely a matter of who touches where/when....the ball stays in the FC unless the ball actualy touches the BC or a player who is in the BC.

I don't think there is anywhere this is really spelled out but the "Question" in the rules regarding a dribbler stepping OOB surely implies that, as far as court location goes, a dribbler is considered to be effectively "touching" the ball at all times.

PSidbury Thu Jan 03, 2008 05:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbilla
...how can you have a BC violation if the ball never went to the BC?...
I am confused. Which, doesn't take much considering this is my first season... ;)

The ball does not have to contact the backcourt for a violation to occur, however if any part of the player while in possession of the ball contacts the backcourt... then yes... it is a backcourt violation.

Right...?

Is that the thread's argument ?

Thanks,
Paul

kbilla Thu Jan 03, 2008 05:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSidbury
I am confused. Which, doesn't take much considering this is my first season... ;)

The ball does not have to contact the backcourt for a violation to occur, however if any part of the player while in possession of the ball contacts the backcourt... then yes... it is a backcourt violation.

Right...?

Is that the thread's argument ?

Thanks,
Paul
Ignore my comments made as I argued with AT&T for 45 mins, look at the subsequent posts...

Ch1town Thu Jan 03, 2008 05:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coltdoggs
Ch1town....I think you are bustin' my chops....;)
Not even... just trying to make sure we have it right.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust
I don't think there is anywhere this is really spelled out but the "Question" in the rules regarding a dribbler stepping OOB surely implies that, as far as court location goes, a dribbler is considered to be effectively "touching" the ball at all times.
9-3-1 NOTE

RookieDude Thu Jan 03, 2008 05:23pm
What if the official deemed the one handed "push", of the ball, a pass...instead of a dribble?;)


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