What do you think about this?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by tomegun

What do you think of these plays?

Were they the right calls? What else was going on in C's / L's area? Did the L start to rotate (or was late to rotate) on the drive?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Were they the right calls? What else was going on in C's / L's area? Did the L start to rotate (or was late to rotate) on the drive?

And was the foul called on the primary or a secondary defender? Inquiring minds want to know these things!

As for the travel, I would rather those calls came from the outside official on most plays.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Were they the right calls? What else was going on in C's / L's area? Did the L start to rotate (or was late to rotate) on the drive?

On the travel, the C had to look past/between at least 4 players. The way the play developed the Lead was not right up on the play and he had a whistle. Yes, I have talked about traveling in front of the Lead in pregame and it always involves the Trail helping out. It just isn't normal for the C to have a clear view of a traveling play in front of the Lead.

On the drive, the Lead was not rotating - the Lead was ball watching. Again, he had to look past at least 4 players closer to him. There are plays where the Lead is forced to call across the paint: plays where the C physically cannot see contact or non-basketball plays. I am of the strong opinion that when a drive comes from the C on an angle this is the C's play. When the Lead constantly makes these calls it negates the reason for the C in the first place.

I think there are certain fundamentals involved with having three officials - primary areas of coverage. Coming out of those areas should be done for a specific reason. IMO, a double whistle that is clearly in a primary area, especially between the Lead and C, is not a good double whistle. Is it a coincident that officials normally have a reason for looking past matchups to make a call out of their primary? I think not. It is called ball-watching.

BTW, the official I talked to last night is known for watching the ball and calling all over the court. He will rationalize it every time, but I have looked in his eyes during games and he watches the ball.

I know (personally) of zero officials who advocate calling all over the court. Sure, I've heard many officials say they don't mind someone making a call right in front of them, but when we hit the court it just doesn't happen that way.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tomegun

...the Lead was ball watching.
...
It is called ball-watching.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tomegun

On the travel, the C had to look past/between at least 4 players. The way the play developed the Lead was not right up on the play and he had a whistle. Yes, I have talked about traveling in front of the Lead in pregame and it always involves the Trail helping out. It just isn't normal for the C to have a clear view of a traveling play in front of the Lead.

On the drive, the Lead was not rotating - the Lead was ball watching. Again, he had to look past at least 4 players closer to him. There are plays where the Lead is forced to call across the paint: plays where the C physically cannot see contact or non-basketball plays. I am of the strong opinion that when a drive comes from the C on an angle this is the C's play. When the Lead constantly makes these calls it negates the reason for the C in the first place.

I think there are certain fundamentals involved with having three officials - primary areas of coverage. Coming out of those areas should be done for a specific reason. IMO, a double whistle that is clearly in a primary area, especially between the Lead and C, is not a good double whistle. Is it a coincident that officials normally have a reason for looking past matchups to make a call out of their primary? I think not. It is called ball-watching.

BTW, the official I talked to last night is known for watching the ball and calling all over the court. He will rationalize it every time, but I have looked in his eyes during games and he watches the ball.

I know (personally) of zero officials who advocate calling all over the court. Sure, I've heard many officials say they don't mind someone making a call right in front of them, but when we hit the court it just doesn't happen that way.

Those are much better descriptions. I do not know if I would have ever seen any of those plays based on what you have just described.

Peace

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Those are much better descriptions. I do not know if I would have ever seen any of those plays based on what you have just described.

Peace

Sorry for not being more descriptive.

BTW, I work with this guy on Friday. He basically knows what to expect in my pregame and I will not deviate on bit.

Let's shift gears a bit. Let's say you have a double whistle that is clearly in your primary. What would you do? I know what I do, but I would like to hear others' thoughts.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Let's shift gears a bit. Let's say you have a double whistle that is clearly in your primary. What would you do? I know what I do, but I would like to hear others' thoughts.

errr.....I would take the call to the table. Trick question?

What would you do? Wait until the half to kick his azz or take care of it right there on the floor?

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

errr.....I would take the call to the table. Trick question?

What would you do? Wait until the half to kick his azz or take care of it right there on the floor?

Not a trick question. I mean, would you make eye contact, say something to your partner or just take it to the table?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Not a trick question. I mean, would you make eye contact, say something to your partner or just take it to the table?

Why should I say something? He's getting as much money as I am, let him blow what he sees. Maybe he's right...if not or if we agree I'm taking the call.

I always make eye contact on a double whistle btw.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Not a trick question. I mean, would you make eye contact, say something to your partner or just take it to the table?

Depends...how's that for a definitive answer? There are times when I just take it to the table because it's obvious who it was on and we don't need to communicate. There are times when I tell my partner to take it or I say "I've got it" due to who had the last few calls, etc. There are times when I hurriedly sell the crap out of what I am calling before the partner can because I'm not sure what he/she has and know what I have. There are times when I give him/her the big "stink-eye" look for even having a whistle on that play in the first place. (OK, honesty time here - I'm usually the one GETTING the stink-eye). It really depends on the game situation.

And as for the original post, the guy's a ball-watcher. Pre-game it all you want, but be prepared for him to call stuff right in front of you.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Not a trick question. I mean, would you make eye contact, say something to your partner or just take it to the table?

We will stop, look at each other, and let the official whose primary it's in take it to the table. If there's any doubt, we'll verbally make sure we have the same thing. If not, we're going to come together and figure out what happened first.

I had my regular partner pissed at me for taking one of his calls. I was the L and he was the C and a drive started from his area after I closed down but before I could rotate across.

Of course, the defender was secondary and the call was obvious, but he still wanted the call and we agreed to disagree on that one. He yielded to me, but mainly because I didn't even see that as being his (even though he did have a whistle) and came out selling the block. I'm glad I did, because he was coming in with a PC foul and it would've been a horrible call, trust me. I watched the secondary defender slide in under the airborne shooter. I told him that and he said he didn't care what the call was, just about whose call it should be.

[Adam]

I was working a 3-man (I mean that literally) varsity game; one partner is rather old and is known for not moving well. I was C, and we had a double whistle in my primary. He was T and not yet across midcourt. I let him take it.

Shortly after that, our other partner (one of our top officials) came and told me next time he called something like that from that far, take it away from him.

I guess that's how it should be handled here, anyway.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I was working a 3-man (I mean that literally) varsity game; one partner is rather old and is known for not moving well. I was C, and we had a double whistle in my primary. He was T and not yet across midcourt. I let him take it.

Shortly after that, our other partner (one of our top officials) came and told me next time he called something like that from that far, take it away from him.

I guess that's how it should be handled here, anyway.

OK, here is my thought: you wouldn't be taking anything away from him because it was in your primary. There are so many times when a double whistle in your (in general terms) primary is BS to begin with. When that occurs and I'm relatively certain we have the same thing, there is no eye contact because I'm taking it to the table - straight to the table.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Sorry for not being more descriptive.

BTW, I work with this guy on Friday. He basically knows what to expect in my pregame and I will not deviate on bit.

Let's shift gears a bit. Let's say you have a double whistle that is clearly in your primary. What would you do? I know what I do, but I would like to hear others' thoughts.

Usually a double whistle that I have made that is not in my defined area, I would let the official that has the ball in their area take the call. That is if I clearly did not have something different from my partner. That does not happen very often, so it is not much of an issue for me. But there are calls in dual areas that double whistles are appropriate and are not so unusual. I do see where you are going with this. I guess I am wondering why you are so surprised by what other officials do. You said this was a HS game and frankly many HS official in areas that do not work a lot of three-person have that kind of problem.

Peace

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by tomegun

On the travel, the C had to look past/between at least 4 players. The way the play developed the Lead was not right up on the play and he had a whistle. Yes, I have talked about traveling in front of the Lead in pregame and it always involves the Trail helping out. It just isn't normal for the C to have a clear view of a traveling play in front of the Lead.

On the drive, the Lead was not rotating - the Lead was ball watching. Again, he had to look past at least 4 players closer to him. There are plays where the Lead is forced to call across the paint: plays where the C physically cannot see contact or non-basketball plays. I am of the strong opinion that when a drive comes from the C on an angle this is the C's play. When the Lead constantly makes these calls it negates the reason for the C in the first place.

Chiming in late here, but thanks for the description.

On the foul call, definitely sounds like ball-watching. The travel just isn't as clear-cut to me...if players in his primary were around the lane, his angle certainly could also give him a look right at the play. Not something he should be looking for, but could be something he sees. It happens. Not a big deal and it sounds like he got the call right, even if he shouldn't have had it.

I just don't see it as that big a deal in and of itself. You did say he has a rep for ball-watching, though, so it probably becomes another "question" after the game if I'm working with him.