PC or nothing?

bob jenkins · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 28, 2007, 05:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdaref

Reference, please, for requirement that a person with LGP needs to fall over for there to be a disadvantage.

There isn't one. But, it's a given in the OP that there was no disadvantage. So, there can't be a personal foul.

If you want to cahnge the play to say "Large B1 has LGP and is run into by small A2 casuing (insert disadvantage here) but B1 doesn't fall down", then I agree with your call.

cdaref · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 28, 2007, 05:22pm

Sorry, I edited my post while you were replying it seems. I dont see the OP saying there was no advantage/disadvantage. I see him struggling with whether or not there was. Ad/Disad can come from lots of things.

Please see my additional comments above. We are probably coming close to saying the same thing.

kbilla · #3 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 29, 2007, 09:16am

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdaref

Sorry, I edited my post while you were replying it seems. I dont see the OP saying there was no advantage/disadvantage. I see him struggling with whether or not there was. Ad/Disad can come from lots of things.

Please see my additional comments above. We are probably coming close to saying the same thing.

I would not say that the defender was put at a disadvantage, she really didn't move....like I mentioned, the only disadvantage would have occurred if one of A's teammates recovered the loose ball under the basket and shot a layup when B1 was in great position and made a good play...BUT I realize that this is not the way that we call advantage/disadvantage, it only applies to the actual play, not subsequent action...again the thing that bothered me is that B1 COULD have just flopped in this case and there would have been more than enough contact for any official to call the PC foul - it is almost like we penalize her for NOT flopping....

Adam · #4 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 29, 2007, 11:19am

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbilla

it is almost like we penalize her for NOT flopping....

How? She did her job, right? She stopped the dribbler. She wasn't hurt. She wasn't put at a disadvantage. She isn't punished.

kbilla · #5 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 29, 2007, 11:38am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

How? She did her job, right? She stopped the dribbler. She wasn't hurt. She wasn't put at a disadvantage. She isn't punished.

Right, but had she thought to go down she would have done all of the things you mentioned AND she would have drawn a foul on A1, a team foul on A, and guaranteed posession for her team....again, I agree that after further consideration I probably would not call this the next time, but it doesn't sit 100% right with me...

Adam · #6 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 29, 2007, 11:52am

Forget about the advantages of actually getting the foul called.

It's like when the pg gets hacked on the elbow on his way by the defender. Let it go, because there was no advantage gained. You're not penalizing the guard for not losing the ball.

Forget about the fact that the foul call is itself an advantage. It's not. It's a penalty for advantage already gained.

And just because there's contact prior to the flop doesn't guarantee the foul will be called. Over time, officials get good at recognizing this (not perfect, but good.)

kbilla · #7 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 29, 2007, 11:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Forget about the fact that the foul call is itself an advantage. It's not. It's a penalty for advantage already gained.

This is exactly the correct way to think about this...

bob jenkins · #8 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 29, 2007, 01:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbilla

Right, but had she thought to go down she would have done all of the things you mentioned AND she would have drawn a foul on A1,

If she has to *think* to go down, then it's a flop, and I'd still have nothing.

(I'm not saying I haven't been fooled on a similar play, or that I won't be fooled again -- but I've also seen the flop and had the no-call -- even with contact.)

kbilla · #9 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 29, 2007, 02:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If she has to *think* to go down, then it's a flop, and I'd still have nothing.

(I'm not saying I haven't been fooled on a similar play, or that I won't be fooled again -- but I've also seen the flop and had the no-call -- even with contact.)

Yeah but believe me when I tell you that you wouldn't have had a flop on this one given the severity of the contact....but I understand your point...