PC or nothing?

kbilla · #1 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 27, 2007, 09:37pm

A1 drives down the lane and slams into B1 who has LGP. B1, however, is considerably larger than A1 and the contact does not budge B1, while A1 goes flying and the loses control of the ball...I come out with a PC foul, but after thinking about it further in an advantage/disadvantage context I am wondering if the correct call there is no call....I have been to several camps where clinicians would say I am sure that if there is that kind of contact you must have a foul, but B1 was not necessarily put at a disadvantage by the contact, and there was no way I could have a block on the play...thoughts?

jdw3018 · #2 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 27, 2007, 09:39pm

Have to see it.

But, seriously, I'd have to see it.

grunewar · #3 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 27, 2007, 09:46pm

I have been taught - Spud Web sized individual charges down the court at full speed and runs into Shaq sized person who has been standing in the key. Shaq doesn't move, Spud goes flying....whatya got?

Charge? Spud didn't create an advantage? Block? Shaq had LGP and didn't move! Same scenario.....yes? Got nuttin.

kbilla · #4 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 27, 2007, 09:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Have to see it.

But, seriously, I'd have to see it.

Picture this...VG, 105lb point guard runs full speed into the 180lb center who is doing nothing more than standing still with her arms straight up...ball and point guard go flying...assuming that I was correct in judging that the defense had obtained LGP, what do you have?

kbilla · #5 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 27, 2007, 09:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by grunewar

I have been taught - Spud Web type idividual charges down the court at full speed and runs into Shaq sized person who has been standing in the key. Shaq doesn't move, Spud goes flying....whatya got?

Charge? Spud didn't create an advantage? Block? Shaq had LGP and didn't move! Same scenario.....yes? Got nuttin.

Same scenario yes.....while Spud didn't creat an advantage on this play, if the loose ball is recovered by one of Spud's teammates for a layup, seems unfair to Shaq when all he had to do is fall backwards on the contact to get a PC foul...granted this is not the intention of "advantage/disadvantage" officiating, but still....like I said I called the PC foul and didn't feel great about it afterwards, and the more I think about it in an advantage/disadvantage context I would probably have nothing the next time I see this...just have to be prepared to take a ton of heat for the no call, but I believe it is the correct call....

grunewar · #6 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 27, 2007, 09:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbilla

just have to be prepared to take a ton of heat for the no call, but I believe it is the correct call....

And, as Yogi Berra would say - if you call a charge, half the people will be unhappy.....if you call a block.....half the people will be unhappy......and if you call nothing? The other half will think your crazy as there just HAS to be a call!

Nevadaref · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 28, 2007, 04:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbilla

Picture this...VG, 105lb point guard runs full speed into the 180lb center who is doing nothing more than standing still with her arms straight up...ball and point guard go flying...assuming that I was correct in judging that the defense had obtained LGP, what do you have?

In this area of the country we call that a Bono (or for those in CO a Kennedy).

Adam · #8 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 28, 2007, 11:09am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

In this area of the country we call that a Bono (or for those in CO a Kennedy).

Ouch!

As for the OP, I've got nothing. I've made this call before and regretted it. The pg didn't create any advantage, and this applies even if the pg holds the ball without violating, or the loose ball gets recovered by the offense.

Now, if it looks like the defender got hit so hard he may be hurt, call the foul.

WhistlesAndStripes · #9 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 28, 2007, 03:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Now, if it looks like the defender got hit so hard he may be hurt, call the foul.

I'm just curious where in the rule book it says you decide whether or not to call a foul based on whether or not someone got hurt?

cdaref · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 28, 2007, 04:17pm

kb, I think I've got a player control foul like you had.

And, like you, I probably agonize over whether or not I should have passed on it.

But in the end, the rules are the rules. You cant say "oh, he's big, so no foul" just like you can't say "oh, he's short, so we gotta find something." If, as you describe, the guard SLAMS into a defender with LGP, thats a player control foul. And, as others have noted, the fact the defender doesnt fall over isnt the only way an advantage could be gained. Plus, you cant penalize the big guy for being big. He got the position, as the rules say. He drew the charge, as the rules say. Make the call. I understand why you are agonizing over it. But dont.

bob jenkins · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 28, 2007, 05:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

I'm just curious where in the rule book it says you decide whether or not to call a foul based on whether or not someone got hurt?

If someone is hurt, then they are likely at a disadvantage.

That's not the only criteria for a foul, of course, but if the other elements are there ...

bob jenkins · #12 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 28, 2007, 05:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdaref

kb, I think I've got a player control foul like you had.

And, like you, I probably agonize over whether or not I should have passed on it.

But in the end, the rules are the rules. You cant say "oh, he's big, so no foul" just like you can't say "oh, he's short, so we gotta find something." If, as you describe, the guard SLAMS into a defender with LGP, thats a player control foul. And, as others have noted, the fact the defender doesnt fall over isnt the only way an advantage could be gained. Plus, you cant penalize the big guy for being big. He got the position, as the rules say. He drew the charge, as the rules say. Make the call. I understand why you are agonizing over it. But dont.

Reference, pleae, for calling the contact when it didn't (as a given in the OP) place the defender at a disadvantage or give the offense an advaantage.

After all, "the rules are the rules"

cdaref · #13 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 28, 2007, 05:12pm

Reference, please, for requirement that a person with LGP needs to fall over for there to be a disadvantage.

Plus, I dont see the OP saying the defense was not put at a disadvantage. I see the OP saying that he was wondering about whether there was or was not an advantage or disadvantage. He certainly doesnt say in his post: "there was no advantage or disadvantage." What he says is B1 had LGP and ballhandler A1 "slams" into B1, A1 goes flying and loses the ball.

Also please note that I am not mandating a PC call there. I am saying it is a tight one and that I likely would have had a PC call. I am saying I would reward the defender for LGP and then getting "slammed" into.

bob jenkins · #14 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 28, 2007, 05:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdaref

Reference, please, for requirement that a person with LGP needs to fall over for there to be a disadvantage.

There isn't one. But, it's a given in the OP that there was no disadvantage. So, there can't be a personal foul.

If you want to cahnge the play to say "Large B1 has LGP and is run into by small A2 casuing (insert disadvantage here) but B1 doesn't fall down", then I agree with your call.

cdaref · #15 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 28, 2007, 05:22pm

Sorry, I edited my post while you were replying it seems. I dont see the OP saying there was no advantage/disadvantage. I see him struggling with whether or not there was. Ad/Disad can come from lots of things.

Please see my additional comments above. We are probably coming close to saying the same thing.