The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 25, 2007, 09:01pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 271
Closely guarded clarification

I have poked through prior threads and never really found an answer to this question: A3 is being closely guarded by B4. A2 sets a screen for A3 while defender B4 remains within six feet of A3, closely working around the screen. What is the correct call by rule? Does the closely guarded count continue? Or, is the closely guarded count discontinued once another player is positioned between the player in control and a closely guarding opponent?
__________________
All of us learn to write in the second grade. Most of us go on to greater things.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 25, 2007, 09:03pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,995
Quote:
Originally Posted by lmeadski
I have poked through prior threads and never really found an answer to this question: A3 is being closely guarded by B4. A2 sets a screen for A3 while defender B4 remains within six feet of A3, closely working around the screen. What is the correct call by rule? Does the closely guarded count continue? Or, is the closely guarded count discontinued once another player is positioned between the player in control and a closely guarding opponent?
NFHS = the count continues
NCAA = the count ceases
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 25, 2007, 09:07pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,463
As long as the defender stays in front of the ball handler (or another defender) and is within 6 feet, you continue the count until the ball handler passes, shoots and picks up a dribble (or starts a dribble) to start another count. Of course a count can end if the ball handler gets their head and shoulders beyond the defender or the defender backs off more than 6 feet.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 25, 2007, 09:26pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Five Second Count With Screen

I've been researching this since a coach asked me about it in a scrimmage a few weeks ago. After going through the NFHS Rule Book, and Case Book, I'm 95% sure that the five second count continues even as the dribbler and the defender are separted by a screener, as long as they stay within six feet of each other. I say 95% sure because I can't find anything that says otherwise in a NFHS publication.

That said, the 5% uncertainty in my mind comes from only a single source, not a NFHS source, but an IAABO source:

2005 IAABO Refresher Exam - Question 22: A-1 is holding the ball in the front court and is closely guarded by B-1. As the official count is at two, A-2 takes and holds a position between A-1 and B-1. Official discontinues the 5 second closely guarded violating count. Is the official correct. Answer Yes, Citations 4-10, 4-23-1.

Even though I'm not an NCAA official, I do know with 100% certainty, that the count is stopped in NCAA:

NCAA 4-13-4: "When a player is positioned between the player in control of the ball and his or her opponent, who is within 6 feet (men) or 3 feet (women), a closely guarded situation does not exist.

For high school games governed by NFHS rules, I can't explain the Refresher Exam answer. My local board interpreter insists that there is not a mistake in the anser key, so it appears that for those of us who are members of IAABO, we stop the count, based solely on one test question on one Refresher Exam.

Help! Please help! I'm so confused!
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 25, 2007, 09:40pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,995
The 2004-05 POE states precisely when to stop a closely-guarded count. The intervention of a screener is not one of the listed reasons.

1. Closely guarded. Well-officiated closely-guarded situations provide for better balance between offense and defense. When the closely guarded rules are not followed, there is a significant advantage for the offense. The following four areas are to be emphasized:
A. When to start. A closely guarded situation occurs when a player in control of the ball in his or her team's front court, is guarded by an opponent who is within six feet of that player who is holding or dribbling the ball. It should also be emphasized that the defensive player must obtain a legal guarding position.
A player shall not hold the ball for five seconds or dribble the ball for five seconds while closely guarded in his or her front court. A player can legally hold the ball while closely guarded for four seconds, dribble the ball for four seconds and hold the ball again for four seconds before violating.
B. When to stop. A closely-guarded count ends when no defensive player is within six feet. The count also stops when a closely guarded player (a) completes a dribble anywhere in the team's own front court; (b) starts a dribble in the team's own frontcourt and ends it anywhere in the frontcourt (a new five-second count will start if the player holds the ball); (c) loses possession of the ball for any reason in the team's own frontcourt; or (d) has his or her dribble interrupted. If a closely-guarded player beats the defender(s) by getting head and shoulders past the defensive player, the count has ended.
C. Multiple defenders. The count should continue even if there is a defensive switch, provided the six-foot distance is maintained. There is no requirement for the defensive player to remain the same during the count as long as the offensive player is closely guarded throughout.
D. Counting mechanics. Emphasis should be placed on the official to begin a visible count when the six-foot distance is established. The official must switch arms when going directly from one counting situation to another.



Additionally, there is this case book play dealing with screening teammates.

SCREENING TEAMMATES
9.10.1 SITUATION D: Team A, while in possession of the ball in its frontcourt: (a) positions four players parallel with the sideline and they pass the ball from one to another with their arms reaching beyond the sideline plane; or (b) has four teammates surround dribbler A1. In both (a) and (b), the opponents are unable to get close to the ball. RULING: This is considered to be a closely-guarded situation and a violation in five seconds in both (a) and (b), if any B player is within 6 feet of the ball or within 6 feet of the screening teammates and is attempting to gain control of the ball. Preventing opponents from getting to the ball by using screening teammates becomes a violation in five seconds if the opponents are attempting to gain control.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 25, 2007, 10:25pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Boston area
Posts: 615
If a screener comes between the dribbler and the defender, the dribbler is no longer closely guarded and the count stops. In order to legally guard a player, you -- or any other defensive player -- must be in the dribbler's path. If an offensive player is in the path, that player is no longer guarded...closely or not.

For those who are pretending otherwise...take the scenario. If a player gets the ball behind a screen, do you start a closely guarded count, even if the defender is within 6 feet? I hope not.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 25, 2007, 10:30pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,995
Quote:
Originally Posted by BayStateRef
If a screener comes between the dribbler and the defender, the dribbler is no longer closely guarded and the count stops. In order to legally guard a player, you -- or any other defensive player -- must be in the dribbler's path. If an offensive player is in the path, that player is no longer guarded...closely or not.

For those who are pretending otherwise...take the scenario. If a player gets the ball behind a screen, do you start a closely guarded count, even if the defender is within 6 feet? I hope not.
Can you please provide a citation that supports your expressed OPINION?

What you say is true for an NCAA game, but not at the NFHS level as the citations that I provided in my last post demonstrate. Until you counter those with some written documentation, you cannot be considered correct.

I suggest that you reconsider your position.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 25, 2007, 10:33pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Boston area
Posts: 615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Can you please provide a citation that supports your expressed OPINION?
Rule 4-23-1. Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of the offensive opponent. There is no minimum distance required between the guard and the opponent.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 25, 2007, 10:36pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
That's all you've got? Not enough.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 25, 2007, 10:43pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Boston area
Posts: 615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
That's all you've got? Not enough.
The rule speaks for itself. It does not need any amplification. I certainly would like this...any many other Fed rules to be crystal clear, but it is what we have.

In order to have a closely guarded count, the offensive player must be continuously guarded. I posted the definition of guarded. It requires a player and an opponent in that player's path. Once another offensive player is in that path, that "first" player is no longer guarded.

You don't have to accept my word. It is what I have been taught repeatedly and there is no rule or casebook play that says otherwise.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 25, 2007, 10:46pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,995
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
That's all you've got? Not enough.
Especially since the very next sentence is, "There is no minimum distance required between the guard and opponent, but the maximum is 6 feet when closely guarded."

I'll also add this case play:

9.10.1 SITUATION C: Team A has the ball in its own frontcourt. B1 stands within 6 feet and facing A1 while A1 is holding the ball near the division line. RULING: In five seconds this would be a violation. In the situation outlined, as soon as B1 has assumed a guarding position, both feet on the court, facing the opponent, no other specific requirement is in effect. The amount of movement or the actual body position of the player is irrelevant.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 25, 2007, 10:48pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,995
Quote:
Originally Posted by BayStateRef
The rule speaks for itself. It does not need any amplification. I certainly would like this...any many other Fed rules to be crystal clear, but it is what we have.

In order to have a closely guarded count, the offensive player must be continuously guarded. I posted the definition of guarded. It requires a player and an opponent in that player's path. Once another offensive player is in that path, that "first" player is no longer guarded.

You don't have to accept my word. It is what I have been taught repeatedly and there is no rule or casebook play that says otherwise.
The reason that we don't accept your word is that you are incorrect. Sorry that you won't accept that.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 25, 2007, 10:56pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Boston area
Posts: 615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
The reason that we don't accept your word is that you are incorrect. Sorry that you won't accept that.
I accept that you do not agree. And I have no problem with that.

This is a simple and common situation. A player is dribbling, closely guarded, and moves behind a screen, and comes out the other side a second or two later. Simple question: does the count end or continue?

Yet, there is no single case book play that deals with it. I cite the plain language of the rule. You cite case book plays that do not directly address this regular occurance. As I said, I have been instructed repeatedly that the count ends when the screen intervenes.

I have read the cases you cite...and others. I can find nothing to make me question the interpreter that has instructed me.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 25, 2007, 11:04pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,995
Quote:
Originally Posted by BayStateRef
Yet, there is no single case book play that deals with it.
This case play certainly makes it clear that a closely guarded count continues when there are players between the guard and the player with the ball, even in the most extreme of circumstances.
SCREENING TEAMMATES
9.10.1 SITUATION D: Team A, while in possession of the ball in its frontcourt: (a) positions four players parallel with the sideline and they pass the ball from one to another with their arms reaching beyond the sideline plane; or (b) has four teammates surround dribbler A1. In both (a) and (b), the opponents are unable to get close to the ball. RULING: This is considered to be a closely-guarded situation and a violation in five seconds in both (a) and (b), if any B player is within 6 feet of the ball or within 6 feet of the screening teammates and is attempting to gain control of the ball. Preventing opponents from getting to the ball by using screening teammates becomes a violation in five seconds if the opponents are attempting to gain control.


How can you dispute that? The NFHS comment is very clear here.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 25, 2007, 11:49pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 1,281
Quote:
Originally Posted by BayStateRef
I accept that you do not agree. And I have no problem with that.

This is a simple and common situation. A player is dribbling, closely guarded, and moves behind a screen, and comes out the other side a second or two later. Simple question: does the count end or continue?

Yet, there is no single case book play that deals with it. I cite the plain language of the rule. You cite case book plays that do not directly address this regular occurance. As I said, I have been instructed repeatedly that the count ends when the screen intervenes.

I have read the cases you cite...and others. I can find nothing to make me question the interpreter that has instructed me.
Think you and your interpreter need to relook at the rule book closely

1) if any B player is within 6 feet of the ball or within 6 feet of the screening teammates and is attempting to gain control of the ball. Preventing opponents from getting to the ball by using screening teammates becomes a violation in five seconds if the opponents are attempting to gain control.

2) Multiple defenders. The count should continue even if there is a defensive switch, provided the six-foot distance is maintained. There is no requirement for the defensive player to remain the same during the count as long as the offensive player is closely guarded throughout.

Normally in a screening situation (unless I ve missed some basic basketball,
1) The defender either goes around the screen and continues to guard the player and as long as he wiithin six feet (of the dribbler) or the screener and continues to guard it is a violation

2) There is a defensive switch and as long as both defenders maintained the 6 feet the count continues. Some may like the NCAA rule better, but for now until the rule is changed it is the rule.

This may sound terrible, but this is what gets us in trouble. If we make stuff up that just aint there we contribute to the myths and the "inconsistency" that coaches $itch about"
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Closely Guarded ? Joel Poli Basketball 51 Tue Nov 09, 2004 08:02am
A closely guarded clarification blindzebra Basketball 30 Sat Jun 26, 2004 03:09pm
Closely Guarded Clarification Luv4Asian8 Basketball 2 Wed Oct 29, 2003 06:55pm
Closely guarded clarification mcdanrd Basketball 4 Tue Dec 18, 2001 09:47am
Closely Guarded? Richard Ogg Basketball 5 Sat Dec 01, 2001 08:47pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:18am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1