Closely Guarded ?

[Joel Poli]

What do you think:
NFHS rules
"A1 is holding the ball and is closely guarded by B1, but A-2 is standing between A-1 and B-1. Official after 5 seconds calls a 5 second closely guarded violation. Is the official correct"

I say that the official is correct. Some of the comments made in the NFHS casebook play 9.10.1 situation D are my reference.

[BktBallRef]

No, the official is not correct. If A2 is between A1 and B1, then B1 is not guarding A1.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
No, the official is not correct. If A2 is between A1 and B1, then B1 is not guarding A1.

A2 is setting a screen, and that does not end the count.9-10-1-b. A player shall not while closely guarded: In his/her front court, control the ball for 5 seconds in an area enclosed by screening teammates.

[Damian]

Slam me if you want, but the reference to 10-1-b is for screening teamates surrounding the person with the ball keeping an opponent from getting to him or lining up close to the side line and passing the ball to each others outstreched arms over the out of bounds area.

Most people agree that this does not apply to someone moving around a screen and losing the direct contact with the ball handler. In this case, I believe that the closely guarded count ends. I have seen several posts that do not agree, but this was covered in camps this past summer by people that know the rules better than I and they all said it ends.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Damian
Slam me if you want, but the reference to 10-1-b is for screening teamates surrounding the person with the ball keeping an opponent from getting to him or lining up close to the side line and passing the ball to each others outstreched arms over the out of bounds area.

Most people agree that this does not apply to someone moving around a screen and losing the direct contact with the ball handler. In this case, I believe that the closely guarded count ends. I have seen several posts that do not agree, but this was covered in camps this past summer by people that know the rules better than I and they all said it ends.

There is no rules reference that says it stops the count, if B1 was guarding A1 and A2 sets a screen the count does not stop.

[rainmaker]

Just another example of a rule that needs clarifying.

[FrankHtown]

I agree with BktBallRef and Damien. Not only is within 6 feet a criteria, but the player with the ball must be "continuously guarded" (4-10). If the defender is behind a screen, I have trouble visualizing the ball handler being "continuously guarded." Now, if there is a defender on the screener, and the defender pops out and immediately obtains a legal guarding position on the ball handler, I'd continue the count.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by blindzebra

A2 is setting a screen, and that does not end the count.9-10-1-b. A player shall not while closely guarded: In his/her front court, control the ball for 5 seconds in an area enclosed by screening teammates.

Sorry BZ but you're dead wrong.

When one teammate sets a screen, that does not mean that the player with the ball is "enclosed by screening teammates." The fact that only one teammate is setting the screen clearly displays that this rule doesn't apply to this situation.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Nov 3rd, 2004 at 02:52 PM]

[jritchie]

IMHO, if B1 is guarding A1 in legal guarding position, and someone from Team A runs in between them you wouldn't stop the 5 second count would you... just because someone is in between A1 and B1 doesn't mean you are not in legal guarding position as long as you are within the 6 feet the count should go on!!! Could be wrong, but i don't think just because someone sets a screen, the count should end, because if that happens, one person could dribble around a whole quarter/half, without ever giving it up as long as their team keeps screening for her/him...

[Joel Poli]

I can't find a rule that supports the official not to count in this situation. However, I can find rule support in the definitions of closely guarded and legal guarding position to start or continue a closely guarded count. The official must determine that B1 is still guarding A1.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Sorry BZ but you're dead wrong.

When one teammate sets a screen, that does not mean that the player with the ball is "enclosed by screening teammates." The fact that only one teammate is setting the screen clearly displays that this rule doesn't apply to this situation.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Nov 3rd, 2004 at 02:52 PM]

Cite a rule reference for the count to end. The fact that there is a reference to screening teammates adds to my stance, not yours.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by blindzebra
Cite a rule reference for the count to end. The fact that there is a reference to screening teammates adds to my stance, not yours.

Cite a rule reference that says the count continues. If the rule that you cite supported your stance, it would not say "enclosed by screening teammates."

How can you be guarding a player if another opponent is between you and the initial player?

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Cite a rule reference that says the count continues. If the rule that you cite supported your stance, it would not say "enclosed by screening teammates."

How can you be guarding a player if another opponent is between you and the initial player?

How can you be guarding him if he's enclosed by teammates?

What if B1 has LGP and A2 sets a screen, B1 slides past the screen and takes it right in the center of his torso by a driving A1. You going to say it's got to be a block, because B1 can't be guarding through A2's screen?

A screen does not keep you from attempting to guard a player, and has no baring on LGP or closely guarded.

How is it that the count continues if you have a switch from B1 and B2 on A1 as long as B2 is within 6 feet before the switch? When does a switch usually occur? Would not be during a screening situation would it?

[Edited by blindzebra on Nov 3rd, 2004 at 05:55 PM]

[Joel Poli]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Cite a rule reference that says the count continues.

The rule reference's are 4-10 and 4-23. LGP and within 6 feet. The rules do not state any exceptions.

[BktBallRef]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by blindzebra
How can you be guarding him if he's enclosed by teammates?[quote]

You can't. That's why the rules address this specific situation. Just as a player cannot lift his foot from the lane to avoid a 3 second call or after gaining position while sitting on the floor, place the ball on the floor, stand up, and then pick the ball up to avoid a traveling call. These are all situations where the player is attempting to circumvent the rules. Such actions are specifically addressed as violations.

What if B1 has LGP and A2 sets a screen, B1 slides past the screen and takes it right in the center of his torso by a driving A1. You going to say it's got to be a block, because B1 can't be guarding through A2's screen? A screen does not keep you from attempting to guard a player, and has no baring on LGP or closely guarded.

Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent. If I have a teammate between you and I, you are no longer in my path. You no longer have LGP on me. It would have to be re-established. While a guard doesn't have to do anything to maintain LGP, it does not last forever. It does end.

How is it that the count continues if you have a switch from B1 and B2 on A1 as long as B2 is within 6 feet before the switch? When does a switch usually occur? Would not be during a screening situation would it?

Ever heard of a trap? Hello??? Is there a screen in this play from the NFHS website.

SITUATION 12: A1 is closely guarded by B1 for two seconds in Team A’s frontcourt. B2 then double-teams A1, and both B1 and B2 are closely guarding A1 for one second. B1 then drops off of A1 to cover another player. B2 continues to closely guard A1 for two more seconds. RULING: A1 has committed a violation since he/she was closely guarded continuously for a total of five seconds.

This screen play that we're discussing has previously appeared on the NFHS website and was not a violation. Think what you will but you're wrong.

I'm done.