If you are the R

[TD21]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I know I'm late to this conversation, but I've gone through a couple of stages on this topic. First, I used to notice the lopsided foul count and start looking for fouls to call on the other team. After all, over a season, fouls are usually pretty even amongst teams, right? So if the foul count is uneven, we must be doing something wrong, right? Wrong. Team foul counts are affected by such things as style of play, talent level, and the teams they are playing (rivalries, etc.). If the crew is calling the game the right way, the foul counts are where they should be, even if they are 8 - 0 at some point. Then I moved on to the "I don't care what the count is" phase. I tried to ignore the count so it wouldn't affect the calls I made. Since then, I've figured out game awareness is a big deal. Being aware of when the clock starts and stops, knowing the table set the arrow the proper direction, knowing which direction the arrow is pointing so you don't have to look away from the players during the scrum, knowing who the better players are so you're aware of what the team is trying to do; all of these things add up to game awareness. Knowing the foul count is important because I want to know if we will be shooting the bonus, and I need to be able to find the shooter. If the foul count is "uneven", I better know why - is one team driving more while the other is shooting jump shots from the outside? Maybe, just maybe, we are missing something as a crew; perhaps we've called illegal screens on one team and the other is running a similar offense, so have we missed anything? Not to call something that isn't there, not to "even things up", but to be aware of why the count isn't even.

I agree with everything you have said. Just know that others will say that it is your opinion and not a fact that this helps you as an official. I find it humorous that the official who use this knowledge find it helpful while those that don't find it useless. Is that the same reason my grandma think computers are a waste of time?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by TD21

I agree with everything you have said. Just know that others will say that it is your opinion and not a fact that this helps you as an official. I find it humorous that the official who use this knowledge find it helpful while those that don't find it useless. Is that the same reason my grandma think computers are a waste of time?

Knowing the information, and what you do with that information, are what's important. There are officials that will see the lopsided foul count, and all of a sudden there 3 quick fouls on the team that is behind. It's possible that team fouled 3 times, but more than likely the less-experienced crew was just trying to make it even in their minds. Unfortunately, that just lowers the crew's credibility even more than the lopsided count.

I've also been told by a couple of very experienced officials that if we know the "star" player has 4 fouls, and that player appears to have committed their 5th, that I should give it to one of their teammates who's close by. I'm not good enough to be able to make that distinction on a reaction call (especially with all the other crap floating around in my head...). Besides, tell me how that helps our credibility that we charge a foul to a player that we know did not commit a foul? Now, if I know white 34 has 4 fouls, I'm more prepared if that 5th foul happens, so I can make sure we don't start the game before taking care of business. But I'm not going to change what I call, or how I call it, based on the information.

So, TD21, I assume you just haven't shown your grandma the wonders of the internet yet?

[TD21]

So, TD21, I assume you just haven't shown your grandma the wonders of the internet yet? [/QUOTE]

Sometimes you just gotta say, "you're right" and move on. I'm not sure I'd have the time or patience to show her how to work it or she'd every really understand everything it could help her with. She got through life to this point without it. Why teach her something new. After all it probably would just be useless information that she wouldn't need anyway.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Knowing the information, and what you do with that information, are what's important.

Yep. I guess that is just bad communication on your part.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I've also been told by a couple of very experienced officials that if we know the "star" player has 4 fouls, and that player appears to have committed their 5th, that I should give it to one of their teammates who's close by.

I have been told the very same thing. I have never done that and never will.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Now, if I know white 34 has 4 fouls, I'm more prepared if that 5th foul happens, so I can make sure we don't start the game before taking care of business. But I'm not going to change what I call, or how I call it, based on the information.

Another statement I agree with. I just do not want to make that a really cheap foul that we have not called the rest of the game. Usually that does not happen, but it can if you are not aware from my point of view. The opposite of knowledge is ignorance. I do not want to be caught by surprise because I am not aware of a situation.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Now, if I know white 34 has 4 fouls, I'm more prepared if that 5th foul happens, so I can make sure we don't start the game before taking care of business.

Please explain. You're preparing to do exactly what? What would you do differently if you knew that the player had 5 fouls before the scorer informed you that, yes, the player had 5 fouls? And exactly why do you need that preparation anyway? What good exactly is the information about a player having 4 fouls to an official if you're not going to change the way that you've been calling the game?

Inquiring minds need to know.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Please explain. You're preparing to do exactly what? What would you do differently if you knew that the player had 5 fouls before the scorer informed you that, yes, the player had 5 fouls? And exactly why do you need that preparation anyway? What good exactly is the information about a player having 4 fouls to an official if you're not going to change the way that you've been calling the game?

Inquiring minds need to know.

I have had several tables tell us after we've put the ball in play that white 34 had 5 fouls. This makes us look bad as a crew, so if there's anything I can do to avoid looking bad (well, ok, there's nothing I can do about my looks, but you know what I mean ), I will do it. As far as what I do differently, if I know white 34 has just committed their 5th, I may wait an extra moment at the table until they notify me, or, I may even ask them if that's #34's 5th. Most of the time the table realizes it is the 5th, and I've avoided putting the ball in play too early. There was one time I thought it was the player's 5th, asked the table, and the scorer told me, "Nope, it was their 4th". Put the ball in play, the other team was dribbling up the court, (no FT's, thank goodness), and the table hits the horn. The scorer was apologizing left and right (literally; he was apologizing to both benches), and we got the player out and the game re-started without a problem.

Obviously, the better the table crew, the less likely I need to worry about this. But it has just become a bit of a habit I've picked up to avoid a possible messy situation.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I have had several tables tell us after we've put the ball in play that white 34 had 5 fouls. This makes us look bad as a crew, so if there's anything I can do to avoid looking bad (well, ok, there's nothing I can do about my looks, but you know what I mean ), I will do it. As far as what I do differently, if I know white 34 has just committed their 5th, I may wait an extra moment at the table until they notify me, or, I may even ask them if that's #34's 5th. Most of the time the table realizes it is the 5th, and I've avoided putting the ball in play too early. There was one time I thought it was the player's 5th, asked the table, and the scorer told me, "Nope, it was their 4th". Put the ball in play, the other team was dribbling up the court, (no FT's, thank goodness), and the table hits the horn. The scorer was apologizing left and right (literally; he was apologizing to both benches), and we got the player out and the game re-started without a problem.

Obviously, the better the table crew, the less likely I need to worry about this. But it has just become a bit of a habit I've picked up to avoid a possible messy situation.

I completely understand your thinking on this, but what amazes me is how several people have claimed that this has happened enough times to make them concerned about it.

This is my 5th year officiating. I can recall only once, and that was a MS game, where we actually got the ball in play before being notified of 5 fouls...I guess I'm just lucky!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I have had several tables tell us after we've put the ball in play that white 34 had 5 fouls. This makes us look bad as a crew, so if there's anything I can do to avoid looking bad (well, ok, there's nothing I can do about my looks, but you know what I mean ), I will do it. As far as what I do differently, if I know white 34 has just committed their 5th, I may wait an extra moment at the table until they notify me, or, I may even ask them if that's #34's 5th.

I think the moral of this story is if you ever have a game where White 34 is a prominent player, you might want to pay attention to how many fouls this player accumulates; because scorers statewide (in Illinois anyway) have a problem keeping track of white #34.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I think the moral of this story is if you ever have a game where White 34 is a prominent player, you might want to pay attention to how many fouls this player accumulates; because scorers statewide (in Illinois anyway) have a problem keeping track of white #34.

Remember, it's always different in Illinois.