If you are the R

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I still pre-game with them certain things, such as notifying us when a player has 4 fouls, what signals stop and start the clock, to confirm the visual display with the book, how to handle the arrow, etc...

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Many of score keepers in my area need extra attention. Sometimes there are the gems - those that "get it" - but often the kids need a hand held. Telling me when a player has 4 fouls does two things:

• it allows me to know that the next one is their 5th, and thus additional mechanics come into play
• if they forget, then I've found that they notice after the ball is back in play and make it a point to let me know on the 5th
  • this prevents the situation when a scorer doesn't know a player has 5 until after the ball is back inbounds after the ensuing throw-in

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Many of score keepers in my area need extra attention. Sometimes there are the gems - those that "get it" - but often the kids need a hand held. Telling me when a player has 4 fouls does two things:

• it allows me to know that the next one is their 5th, and thus additional mechanics come into play
• if they forget, then I've found that they notice after the ball is back in play and make it a point to let me know on the 5th
  • this prevents the situation when a scorer doesn't know a player has 5 until after the ball is back inbounds after the ensuing throw-in

Good intentions aside, being notified that a player has 4 fouls is baggage you don't need to be carrying.

[TheOracle]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Good intentions aside, being notified that a player has 4 fouls is baggage you don't need to be carrying.

I think it is good game awareness to know if a player has 4 fouls. If the table can help you there--great. Never thought of that before. I also like the idea of having the table crew help with having jersies tucked. Great stuff.

The one thing I have not seen is shot clock operators. It is good to ensure that they understand that the shot clock is only reset when the team starts their possession. Lots of times they start it upon the reset after a made basket, which can be a few seconds early, and the shot clock can be one of your best friends should you have to call 10 seconds, if it is kept properly. If you want to be really detail-oriented, I've heard of R's actually asking the shot clock operator to try and remember the game clock time for each reset, so if you have to go back and reconstruct due to timer or equipment errors, you can do so with complete accuracy.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

If you want to be really detail-oriented, I've heard of R's actually asking the shot clock operator to try and remember the game clock time for each reset, so if you have to go back and reconstruct due to timer or equipment errors, you can do so with complete accuracy.

When I do the shot clock, I actually write down the game clock time of every reset or stoppage. It comes in handy when, for example, the ball is awarded to the defense on an OOB call, then the official changes his/her call to award the ball to the offense. Last reset was at 18:45, we're at 18:25 now, so we should have 15 seconds on the shot clock (or 10 in a women's game).

One interesting take on this is something I've seen at the college where I now help out the table crew from time to time. While most arenas have the game and shot clocks tied together, they run theirs independently. That way, as long as one clock starts/stops correctly, they can reset the other one.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Good intentions aside, being notified that a player has 4 fouls is baggage you don't need to be carrying.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I've worked it into my game oh - close to a decade ago. When a player is called for their 5th foul, I am ahead of the game when it comes to communication with the table and my P.

Like I said, it's also to keep the scorekeepers on their toes.

I guess my piece of advice for you then is don't try it if you don't like it.

[Mark Padgett]

Jugs - I'm sure I don't have to go into why your comment on being notified about a player's fourth foul elicited such a reaction. In all those years, haven't you taken any flak about "not wanting to call the 5th" on a kid? I have to believe it's come up numerous times.

I'm not implying that it has an effect on your calls - not at all - but just curious about the comments and the impression it creates. Whenever a scorekeeper tells me how many fouls a kid has (unless it's five), I always tell them to not mention it.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Jugs - I'm sure I don't have to go into why your comment on being notified about a player's fourth foul elicited such a reaction. In all those years, haven't you taken any flak about "not wanting to call the 5th" on a kid? I have to believe it's come up numerous times.

I recall the situation and I recall the venue, level, and even my P, who now does NCAA-level ball. When I told him my decision on who to rule committed the foul, he said it was fine.

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

I'm not implying that it has an effect on your calls - not at all - but just curious about the comments and the impression it creates. Whenever a scorekeeper tells me how many fouls a kid has (unless it's five), I always tell them to not mention it.

You are correct - there is no effect on my calls.

Impression is of second concern here. I found that there was a high number of cases (in my mind) where the ball would be put back into play with the fouling player with 5 fouls but this fact was not mentioned to the officials during the reporting phase. Instead, the 5th-foul information reached the officials during a later stoppage in play (not necessarily the next stoppage, but it often was), or worse: a buzzer sounded during a live ball.

To illeviate this problem, I initated the mechanic above. If somebody doesn't like it, then don't use it. If they don't have a problem with teenage scorekeepers losing attention, then don't use it.

Originally Posted by NevadaRef

Seriously, if you want to keep track of the player fouls on your own for game awareness that's fine, but please don't involve the table crew. You open yourself up to someone questioning WHY you want to know who has four fouls. There is an inherent perception of impropriety and we strive to avoid that.

Meh, it works for me and I've yet to see a table crew that can't handle the task. I am basically reminding them of the importance of passing this information to me. I guess I open myself up as you mention. When it happens I will let you know.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I've worked it into my game oh - close to a decade ago. When a player is called for their 5th foul, I am ahead of the game when it comes to communication with the table and my P.

Like I said, it's also to keep the scorekeepers on their toes.

I guess my piece of advice for you then is don't try it if you don't like it.

I think that you are putting an unnecessary burden on your table crew and its entirely possible that you are going to give one of your partners information overload. What if you are working with someone who doesn't want to know about 4th fouls? They simply want to focus on the game and only deal with 5th fouls.

What about the crew that comes in the following game and the table notifies them of someone's 4th foul and they get confused? This could lead to serious communication issues with that crew and the coaches.

Overall, I don't like it.

As for your rationale of being ahead of the game, why not be two steps ahead and have the table notify you on each player's 3rd foul? Or be WAY ahead and have them notify you on 2nd fouls. ...

Seriously, if you want to keep track of the player fouls on your own for game awareness that's fine, but please don't involve the table crew. You open yourself up to someone questioning WHY you want to know who has four fouls. There is an inherent perception of impropriety and we strive to avoid that.

[TD21]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I think that you are putting an unnecessary burden on your table crew and its entirely possible that you are going to give one of your partners information overload. What if you are working with someone who doesn't want to know about 4th fouls? They simply want to focus on the game and only deal with 5th fouls.

What about the crew that comes in the following game and the table notifies them of someone's 4th foul and they get confused? This could lead to serious communication issues with that crew and the coaches.

Overall, I don't like it.

As for your rationale of being ahead of the game, why not be two steps ahead and have the table notify you on each player's 3rd foul? Or be WAY ahead and have them notify you on 2nd fouls. ...

Seriously, if you want to keep track of the player fouls on your own for game awareness that's fine, but please don't involve the table crew. You open yourself up to someone questioning WHY you want to know who has four fouls. There is an inherent perception of impropriety and we strive to avoid that.

I'm not sure about having the table notify you that a player has 4 fouls, but I do think it is a good idea to know if a player has 4 fouls. I almost always know how many fouls each player has, especially if it is one of the better players in the game. I'm sure I'm about to open up a huge debate here, but we have to know who the best players are and who has what fouls. I'll answer the question that will get asked "Why do we care if a player has 4 fouls? if he fouls and its his fifth we need to call it" before it gets asked. While I agree if it is a foul we need to call it I do think there is game management involved, especially if we just called the player for his 4th foul and it was marginal. In this case we better make sure his 5th foul is an obvious foul. Let the debate and disagreement begin!

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by TD21

but we have to know who the best players are

What the heck difference does this make to us?

Originally Posted by TD21

especially if we just called the player for his 4th foul and it was marginal.

Define "marginal". Either it's a foul or it isn't - period.

Originally Posted by TD21

In this case we better make sure his 5th foul is an obvious foul.

So, if the behavior that earned him his 4th foul happens again but you don't think it was "obvious" (whatever that means), you're not going to call it? Defend that way of thinking please.