ms game... college atmospher

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

LGP...

Legal guarding pos..

He was sliding over to establish it.. but was still moving although to his side.. he was not initiating contact but was trying to slide in front of the offensive player to get the call.

Again if it wasn't for the elbow I probly would have called the block...

PLEEEZE familiarize yourself with the concepts set forth in this rule. I am thoroughly disgusted at officials who can't recognize the difference between OBTAINING and MAINTAINING LGP

RULE 4 SECTION 23 GUARDING
ART. 1 . . . Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent. There is no minimum distance required between the guard and opponent, but the maximum is 6 feet when closely guarded. Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent. A player who extends an arm, shoulder, hip or leg into the path of an opponent is not considered to have a legal position if contact occurs.

ART. 2 . . . To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.
ART. 3 . . . After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:
a. The guard may have one or both feet on the playing court or be airborne, provided he/she has inbound status.
b. The guard is not required to continue facing the opponent.
c. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.
d. The guard may raise hands or jump within his/her own vertical plane.
e. The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact.

[Bearfanmike20]

Originally Posted by justacoach

PLEEEZE familiarize yourself with the concepts set forth in this rule. I am thoroughly disgusted at officials who can't recognize the difference between OBTAINING and MAINTAINING LGP

RULE 4 SECTION 23 GUARDING
ART. 1 . . . Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent. There is no minimum distance required between the guard and opponent, but the maximum is 6 feet when closely guarded. Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent. A player who extends an arm, shoulder, hip or leg into the path of an opponent is not considered to have a legal position if contact occurs.

ART. 2 . . . To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.
ART. 3 . . . After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:
a. The guard may have one or both feet on the playing court or be airborne, provided he/she has inbound status.
b. The guard is not required to continue facing the opponent.
c. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.
d. The guard may raise hands or jump within his/her own vertical plane.
e. The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact.

Thats what I said.. he was not set.. he was sliding over.. hence both feet were not on the floor. He had not yet initially obtained the pos.

..... but.... the contact was initiated by the OFFESIVE PLAYER lifting his elbow into the chest of the defensive player. 2 inches higher it would have been the def players throat.

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

Thats what I said.. he was not set.. he was sliding over.. hence both feet were not on the floor. He had not yet initially obtained the pos.

Assuming you were 'refereeing the defense', try to look back on this episode and see if the defender stood facing the ballhandler at any time during the play.
He has therefore OBTAINED LGP and earned the privilege to MAINTAIN LGP by moving as the rules allow. He does not need to emulate a statue with his feet nailed to the floor once he established LGP. If he had jumped in the air within his vertical space and gets plowed by the ballhandler do you have a block cause 'he was not set'? What if he leans backward to lessen the imminent contact? So long as be beats the offense to the spot and is not moving toward the offensive player, contact sufficient to disadvantage the defender warrants a PC call.
Stop being so defensive and try to enlarge your awareness of this chain of events and how to call it properly

[Bearfanmike20]

Originally Posted by justacoach

Assuming you were 'refereeing the defense', try to look back on this episode and see if the defender stood facing the ballhandler at any time during the play.
He has therefore OBTAINED LGP and earned the privilege to MAINTAIN LGP by moving as the rules allow. He does not need to emulate a statue with his feet nailed to the floor once he established LGP. If he had jumped in the air within his vertical space and gets plowed by the ballhandler do you have a block cause 'he was not set'? What is he leans backward to lessen the imminent contact? So long as be beats the offense to the spot and is not moving toward the offensive player, contact sufficient to disadvantage the defender warrants a PC call.
Stop being so defensive and try to enlarge your awareness of this chain of events.

Not trying to be defensive. Trying to explain what I saw.

Def was initially facing another player. He turned and slid over to try to establish LGP. He IMO had not done so yet. Yes he was facing the ball handler, but he slid over in front of an already moving ball handler and had not set LGP. That why I was going to call a block.

That however became moot when the offensive player used his elbow to clear said def player out of his way. 4-25-7

[justacoach]

Bearfan, you have lucidly described the sequence of events but your misapprehension of the definitions in 4-23 are impairing your ability to make the correct call. Think of it this way.....

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

Yes he was facing the ball handler,

Assuming he was inbounds and had feet on floor, does this not constitute INITIAL LGP? then

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

he slid over in front of an (already moving -this is immaterial) ball handler

So long as he was sliding sideways and not toward the ball handler, and reached his spot on the floor first, this is a legally condoned motion to maintain his LGP. Elbow to the throat notwithstanding, if illegal contact results in displacement of the defender, this is PC foul in my book.

Sorry for making you my designated whipping boy, nothing personal intended

[Bearfanmike20]

Originally Posted by justacoach

Bearfan, you have lucidly described the sequence of events but your misapprehension of the definitions in 4-23 are impairing your ability to make the correct call. Think of it this way.....


Assuming he was inbounds and had feet on floor, does this not constitute INITIAL LGP? then


So long as he was sliding sideways and not toward the ball handler, and reached his spot on the floor first, this is a legally condoned motion to maintain his LGP. Elbow to the throat notwithstanding, if illegal contact results in displacement of the defender, this is PC foul in my book.

Sorry for making you my designated whipping boy, nothing personal intended

Nothing personal taken.. it was a fast play even for ms. shuffling may not have been the right description either... I just have a hard time describing it. Point being that I was SURE that he was not in LGP, but it became a moot point anyway.

He was trying to establish LGP but he was late getting there.

[fullor30]

"Bearfan, you have lucidly described the sequence of events but your misapprehension of the definitions in 4-23 are impairing your ability to make the correct call. Think of it this way....."

Coach.......He's 180 from being lucid, as he posted, that's where your frustration started with the description of the play.

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

Nothing personal taken.. it was a fast play even for ms. shuffling may not have been the right description either... I just have a hard time describing it. Point being that I was SURE that he was not in LGP, but it became a moot point anyway.

He was trying to establish LGP but he was late getting there.

He was in LGP AS SOON AS HE FACED THE BALLHANDLER
HE KEPT LGP AS HE WAS SLIDING

Go write on the blackboard 100 times "4.23 Establish first, then maintain"

Maybe then it will sink in.

Bye Bye, enjoy your MS schedule

[fullor30]

"PLEEEZE familiarize yourself with the concepts set forth in this rule. I am thoroughly disgusted at officials who can't recognize the difference between OBTAINING and MAINTAINING LGP"


"Stop being so defensive and try to enlarge your awareness of this chain of events".

Coach................ a little crisp today? He's a relatively new official who comes here for improvement and to learn something. Try offering your solutions sans the editorial comment.

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by fullor30

"PLEEEZE familiarize yourself with the concepts set forth in this rule. I am thoroughly disgusted at officials who can't recognize the difference between OBTAINING and MAINTAINING LGP"


"Stop being so defensive and try to enlarge your awareness of this chain of events".

Coach................ a little crisp today? He's a relatively new official who comes here for improvement and to learn something. Try offering your solutions sans the editorial comment.

Fullor30:
Formerly a coach, took a pay cut to become an official!!!!
On a crusade against officials who constantly kick this call because they fail to grasp that the simple requirements for establishing LGP, ie;feet on floor and inbounds(4-23-2 a&b), are preliminary to, and separate from, the movements allowed to maintain LGP (4-23-3 a thru e) and they have to be considered in their individual contexts and timeframes.
I am really tired of officials who cannot escape the playground vernacular of "He was moving" or "He was not set"
I am convinced that a significant percentage of our officiating brethren still operate on this bogus interpretation and routinely penalize the defense.
/off soapbox

[Bearfanmike20]

Originally Posted by justacoach

Fullor30:
Formerly a coach, took a pay cut to become an official!!!!
On a crusade against officials who constantly kick this call because they fail to grasp that the simple requirements for establishing LGP, ie;feet on floor and inbounds(4-23-2 a&b), are preliminary to, and separate from, the movements allowed to maintain LGP (4-23-3 a thru e) and they have to be considered in their individual contexts and timeframes.
I am really tired of officials who cannot escape the playground vernacular of "He was moving" or "He was not set"
I am convinced that a significant percentage of our officiating brethren still operate on this bogus interpretation and routinely penalize the defense.
/off soapbox

Yes.. Understandable.. but.. the defender never got both feet on the floor to initially establish LGP. Therefor he had on right to maintain it by shuffling if he never established it in the first place.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

Yes.. Understandable.. but.. the defender never got both feet on the floor to initially establish LGP. Therefor he had on right to maintain it by shuffling if he never established it in the first place.

I think part of the problem was your use of the word "set." That's fanspeak, and normally indicative of a misunderstanding of the rules. Nothing says he has to be "set." He can even be moving and establish LGP at the same time, as long as he's facing the opponent with both feet on the floor for even a split second.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

Yes.. Understandable.. but.. the defender never got both feet on the floor to initially establish LGP. Therefor he had on right to maintain it by shuffling if he never established it in the first place.

Note that if a player is backpeddling or shuffling, it is almost certain that they had both feet on the floor at the same time at some point in time. Try it. It is HARD to get both feet off the floor in either of these types of movements unless you really try. There is no requirement that both feet be "planted" on the floor but merely that they be touching the floor...even if it is only a brief moment.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by justacoach

Fullor30:
Formerly a coach, took a pay cut to become an official!!!!
On a crusade against officials who constantly kick this call because they fail to grasp that the simple requirements for establishing LGP, ie;feet on floor and inbounds(4-23-2 a&b), are preliminary to, and separate from, the movements allowed to maintain LGP (4-23-3 a thru e) and they have to be considered in their individual contexts and timeframes.
I am really tired of officials who cannot escape the playground vernacular of "He was moving" or "He was not set"
I am convinced that a significant percentage of our officiating brethren still operate on this bogus interpretation and routinely penalize the defense.
/off soapbox

Try not to be too tired with the new guys, we were all there at some point.

Learning every day.

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Try not to be too tired with the new guys, we were all there at some point.

Learning every day.

Also wanted to reference your previous post also . I do other sports and utilize other forums. Had a coach go off on me over there. Still read that forum but definetly don't put myself out there. Not because I'm all touchy feely like I'm from Oregon or something but got tired of him chasing me around the Net......