AT&T to the rescue!!!

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Just a little vent...


BV game, I'm trail, opposite table. Home A1 dribbles into a trap just over the division line about 10 off the sideline. Visiting B1 and B2 doing a great job with the trap when B1 swats at the ball AND gets the ball knocking it out of A1's hands. A1, having quick hands recovers the ball very quickly....just inches out of his hands.....never hitting the floor. A1, presumably being an intelligent player, knows he can now dribble again and does so to escape the trap. He splits the defenders and about 2-3 steps later with B's fans screaming, there is a whistle from the baseline.....illegal dribble.

I look up in shock at my partner...wondering what he was thinking. He had both B1 and B2 blocking his view of the interior of the trap and couldn't possibly have seen the play. We come together to talk about it and I inform him that the defender knocked the ball out of A1's hands and that A1 got a new dribble as a result. He says that "since the ball didn't hit the floor, A1 can't dribble again". I informed him that there is no such requirement but he insists on sticking with his call...making me look like an idiot (for missing a double dribble right in front of me) and he gets the rule wrong at the same time!!! Even if I HAD missed an illegal dribble in that situation, there is no way he should have come in with that call.

This really ticked me off since he made the call from ~50ft away AND didn't know the rule either.

Was he the R? Not that it matters in this case, just sometimes interesting to see how this impacts things..

[mick]

Originally Posted by kbilla

Was he the R? Not that it matters in this case, just sometimes interesting to see how this impacts things..

Why do you ask ?
If you were the Referee would you reverse your partners' calls ?

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by mick

Why do you ask ?
If you were the Referee would you reverse your partners' calls ?

OK, you just quoted where I said "not that it matters" then you ask a question like this? NO I would not reverse/override one of my partner's calls as R, I asked b/c as we have all seen some officials DO think that if they are R they have the right and/or responsibility to do this...as I said just interesting to see how it plays into the situation...

[tomegun]

I would like to know what happened after the game, at halftime or whenever this play was discussed. Something like this would make my conversation be very direct. Hopefully, your partner apologized at the first opportunity. Otherwise I would directly address why he is calling out of his area so far. I would also discuss the rule that he blew.
Try to use the following to explain it to him: What if B1 knocked the ball twenty feet in the air, twenty feet away from the original play and A1 somehow got to the ball before it hit the ground? Or, what if B1 hit the ball, the ball comes loose, B1 touches it again and then A1 secures it before the ball touches the ground?

The dribble ends when the ball touches or is touched by an opponent and cases the dribbler to lose control.
A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of: art 2...a touch by an opponent.

Hit him with that right quick.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I would like to know what happened after the game, at halftime or whenever this play was discussed. Something like this would make my conversation be very direct.

Since I had already said pretty much everything that could be said on the court, I didn't see any point in bringing it up again. He heard my statement of what happened and the rule. I had no need to "prove I was right" or get him to admit he was wrong.

Originally Posted by tomegun

Hopefully, your partner apologized at the first opportunity. Otherwise I would directly address why he is calling out of his area so far. I would also discuss the rule that he blew.

No apology nor any concession of error. Didn't see that pushing for it would improve anything. Sometimes, it is better to just drop it and vent elsewhere so others can perhaps learn from it.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Since I had already said pretty much everything that could be said on the court, I didn't see any point in bringing it up again. He heard my statement of what happened and the rule. I had no need to "prove I was right" or get him to admit he was wrong.

No apology nor any concession of error. Didn't see that pushing for it would improve anything. Sometimes, it is better to just drop it and vent elsewhere so others can perhaps learn from it.

You dropped it and now he could do the same things: blow a rule and continue to call all over the court. How will that help the game?
It is probably just me, but doing what is right is not always easy. He needs to know he screwed up so he doesn't continue to screw up games. Your association's reputation is at stake, the integrity of the game is at stake and the integrity of every crew he is a part of is at stake. Who said part of being a good partner is only telling officials what they want to hear?

You could have least said, "You're not getting any of my check so you might as well let me call in my area and earn it."

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by tomegun

He needs to know he screwed up so he doesn't continue to screw up games.

Sounds to me like that was made clear on the court and rehashing it postgame would only have led to worse things.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tomegun

You dropped it and now he could do the same things: blow a rule and continue to call all over the court. How will that help the game?
It is probably just me, but doing what is right is not always easy. He needs to know he screwed up so he doesn't continue to screw up games. Your association's reputation is at stake, the integrity of the game is at stake and the integrity of every crew he is a part of is at stake. Who said part of being a good partner is only telling officials what they want to hear?

You could have least said, "You're not getting any of my check so you might as well let me call in my area and earn it."

Tom,
I happen to personally agree with you, but have also found that most HS officials don't want to hear it and that most HS associations frown upon their officials criticizing each other in that manner. If the association has an evaluator or commissioner, it is his job to handle the instruction and compliance. The assignor has the power to take away games or to adjust the level of the games for this kind of behavior both for the official who is screwing up the game and the official who berates his partner.

It would be better if it worked the way that you say, but I've learned otherwise and sadly believe that most HS officials aren't held to that standard.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by tomegun

You dropped it and now he could do the same things: blow a rule and continue to call all over the court. How will that help the game?
It is probably just me, but doing what is right is not always easy. He needs to know he screwed up so he doesn't continue to screw up games. Your association's reputation is at stake, the integrity of the game is at stake and the integrity of every crew he is a part of is at stake. Who said part of being a good partner is only telling officials what they want to hear?

You could have least said, "You're not getting any of my check so you might as well let me call in my area and earn it."

I did, at the spot, tell him what the rule was. He understood what I was saying....just unwilling to overturn his call.

And note that this was the ONLY incident of him calling in my primary. He is NOT typically a ball watcher....but just once is all it takes to get one wrong....backing up the NBA's claims that calling out of your primary tends to be wrong far more than right.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by kbilla

Was he the R? Not that it matters in this case, just sometimes interesting to see how this impacts things..

Somehow I don't think Camron gets upstaged very often due to being the U. I'm pretty sure he can hold his own with any partner.

[Adam]

I think kbilla was more curious about whether this particular partner had some overinflated sense of self-importance due to being the R on this particular game.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I think kbilla was more curious about whether this particular partner had some overinflated sense of self-importance due to being the R on this particular game.

Thanks Snaqs...

And as much as we all joke about what we would do, your partner really blew it in this case and his refusal to back down only made things worse. You handled it as best you could by letting the play go as called rather than getting into an argument with him at midcourt...that said, as others have said there would be some fireworks at halftime!

[TimTaylor]

Tough one Cam...

My first reaction was why in the heck was he, as lead, watching the trap at the division line....and who was watching the other seven players? Yeah, it happens occasionally at lower levels with newer officials, but it's definitely not something I'd expect to see at a BV game.

You were 100% right and your partner blew it big time IMHO. He must have either missed the rules meeting...or slept through it. I know the commissioner covered it, as it was one of this year's rules revisions(4-15-4d, 9-5-2). The ball doesn't even have to be intentionally batted by the oponent - only requirement is that control was lost by ball contacting the opponent......and there's nothing in there about it hitting the floor either.

[JoeTheRef]

I'm assuming the coach didn't know the rule as well.

[mick]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

I'm assuming the coach didn't know the rule as well.

Coach didn't have to know the rule, because "with B's fans screaming", he and Camron's partner knew all they had to know.