4-Point Play?

[inigo montoya]

It was still fairly early in the game and B already had [six] fouls. So when a defensive player reaches an arm all the way across an offensive player's body in order to prevent rebounding position, I fail to see how this will prevent future problems. He didn't just grab jersey - the arm was extended all the way across and it happened right in front of me. If they can't control themselves and avoid fouling at low speeds near the perimeter, I feel I'm only encouraging more contact at higher speeds and inside.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by inigo montoya

It was still fairly early in the game and B already had [six] fouls. So when a defensive player reaches an arm all the way across an offensive player's body in order to prevent rebounding position, I fail to see how this will prevent future problems. He didn't just grab jersey - the arm was extended all the way across and it happened right in front of me. If they can't control themselves and avoid fouling at low speeds near the perimeter, I feel I'm only encouraging more contact at higher speeds and inside.

I too encourage a slow whistle to see how the play develops. It doesn't matter that it was right in front of you or that it was all the way across his body. If the play is just too rough or the game needs some calming down, call it quickly. Aside from that....see the whole play and the effect of the contact....if it made a difference, call it. It the shot goes in or the rebound doesn't come anywhere near them, don't call it....it's generally not a foul if there is no advantage.

[inigo montoya]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I too encourage a slow whistle to see how the play develops. It doesn't matter that it was right in front of you or that it was all the way across his body. If the play is just too rough or the game needs some calming down, call it quickly. Aside from that....see the whole play and the effect of the contact....if it made a difference, call it. It the shot goes in or the rebound doesn't come anywhere near them, don't call it....it's generally not a foul if there is no advantage.

Thank you for your opinion. At this point in my life, I am more concerned with calling the game in a way is consistent with the rules and in making sure that we maintain control of it for 32 minutes. If by definition holding is not reaching your arm across an opponent's body and impeding his progress so that he cannot occupy a position on the court he would otherwise be legally entitled to, then I'm not sure what is.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by inigo montoya

Thank you for your opinion. At this point in my life, I am more concerned with calling the game in a way is consistent with the rules and in making sure that we maintain control of it for 32 minutes. If by definition holding is not reaching your arm across an opponent's body and impeding his progress so that he cannot occupy a position on the court he would otherwise be legally entitled to, then I'm not sure what is.

All of what you said is true, but what is missing is the concept of advantage/disadvantage. Contact alone doesn't make it a foul. The effect of the contact makes it a foul.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by inigo montoya

Thank you for your opinion. At this point in my life, I am more concerned with calling the game in a way is consistent with the rules and in making sure that we maintain control of it for 32 minutes. If by definition holding is not reaching your arm across an opponent's body and impeding his progress so that he cannot occupy a position on the court he would otherwise be legally entitled to, then I'm not sure what is.

I don't mean this as offensive, but this mentality will only work if you are calling middle school girls games where nobody can work through some contact.

If you are working higher than this or want to, you need to learn to call based on advantage/disadvantage. Being consistent doesn't mean calling every bit of contact a foul.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by inigo montoya

It was still fairly early in the game and B already had [six] fouls. So when a defensive player reaches an arm all the way across an offensive player's body in order to prevent rebounding position, I fail to see how this will prevent future problems. He didn't just grab jersey - the arm was extended all the way across and it happened right in front of me. If they can't control themselves and avoid fouling at low speeds near the perimeter, I feel I'm only encouraging more contact at higher speeds and inside.

No, you're not but you are missing the point. That point is too have a slow whistle and wait to see if the contact effects the play.

If the shot goes in, then the arm across the chest has no effect on the play. If a rebound goes to the opposite side, then there's no effect on the play. If the rebound comes off to that side, now you have a player at a disadvantage. TWEET!

If he knocks him to the floor, that's a different story.

Originally Posted by inigo montoya

Thank you for your opinion. At this point in my life, I am more concerned with calling the game in a way is consistent with the rules and in making sure that we maintain control of it for 32 minutes. If by definition holding is not reaching your arm across an opponent's body and impeding his progress so that he cannot occupy a position on the court he would otherwise be legally entitled to, then I'm not sure what is.

It's not just his opinion. It's the officiating philosophy of advantage/disadvatage that quality officals adhere to. To just blindly make a call because the rule book says something does NOT make one a good official. I would suggest you open your NFHS rule book and read the page before rule one. It explains this philosophy. There's no reason to call this a foul except that you think the rule book says to. It does NOT.

When you joined this forum in November, you told us that you were a 2nd year official. Don't take this the wrong way but that's apparent with this call. You were smart enough to join this forum. Take what the veterans here are giving you and add it to your game.

#1, SLOW your whistle down because I can guarantee you it's too fast. All new officials have this issue.

#2, WAIT and see the whole play. That may mena blowing your whistle late but that's okay. Watch an NBA game, they do it all the time.

Or, just ignore us as a bunch of old guys who don't know what we're talking about.

I hope you're smart enough to figure which road to choose.

[Da Official]

We discussed fouls when the team is in the bonus but what happens when B1 fouls A1 ("Rebounder") after the shot is up but before it goes in and there is less then 6 team fouls:

NFHS?


NCAA?

(If this doesnt' make sense let me know, Thanks!)

[Adam]

A gets the ball, whether or not the try is successful.

[Da Official]

In both NCAA and NHFS... Thanks!

[Back In The Saddle]

...for a designated spot throw-in at the spot nearest the foul.

[johnnyrao]

Believe it or not, sometimes coaches do know the rules and use a situation like this to try and "work" the officials. Last year I had a similar situation. I am T and A1 takes a three-pointer. He is hit hard enough for a foul just as he returns to the floor (A is in the double bonus). He misses the shot but I report it as a shooting foul (my opinon) and give three shots. B coach is not irate but does question it beacuse he says contact was after A1 came down and he should only get two shots. Fast forward to a later date and I am having a discussion with the same coach (I think it was a summer tourney). We actually somehow get on this exact play and I ask him "If A1 had made the shot for a three pointer, and I said the foul was AFTER the shot, like you argued, you would not have been happy if I gave them three points and the two foulf shots, correct?" His answer was I was probably right. Either way I think I was going to hear it that night so, sometimes coaches just feel the need to say something to you.