4-Point Play?

[inigo montoya]

It was still fairly early in the game and B already had [six] fouls. So when a defensive player reaches an arm all the way across an offensive player's body in order to prevent rebounding position, I fail to see how this will prevent future problems. He didn't just grab jersey - the arm was extended all the way across and it happened right in front of me. If they can't control themselves and avoid fouling at low speeds near the perimeter, I feel I'm only encouraging more contact at higher speeds and inside.

[Coltdoggs]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

This is absolutely wrong! The act of shooting begins with the habitual motion that precedes the release of a try. So as soon as you start the shooting motion, you're a shooter, regardless of whether you're airborne or not.

If you start the motion, get fouled, but never get airborne, you're still going to the line to shoot 2.

You absolutely can have a shooter without him/her being airborne.

You know...you have a VERY valid point...(I think OP may have been talking about a set shooter's try ending though...

I agree with the motion part of your post Scrapper....Take the post player who in all reality gives a pump fake to get the guard off the floor and gets heavy contact. Let's say I didn't just tell you it was a pump fake and he really intended to shoot the ball but the contact was such that he couldn't get the shot off....You have to be going shooting foul b/c his motion before the release (even though it was a pump fake) must be judged as such...shooting motion, even though he's on the floor

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by inigo montoya

JV-Boys game, NFHS rules (home team was even in white!).

A1 shoots a 2-point jumpshot while just inside the 3-point line while loosely guarded by B1. A1 returns to the floor. While the ball is in the air, A1 takes a step toward the basket to begin getting into position for a possible rebound. B1 reaches out with an arm across A1's midsection and clearly holds him. *tweet*. Ball goes in.

The foul on B1 is the 7th team foul therefore A is in the bonus.

I can give you one better from my sophomore year in HS. Shooter goes up and hits a 3. After the shot, he is fouled and the opposing team is over the limit for team fouls. He steps to the line for a potential 5-point play, but missed the front end of the 1-and-1.

It was a running joke for the rest of the year that he could hit contested 20 footers with ease, but couldn't shoot a free throw.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by inigo montoya

It was still fairly early in the game and B already had [six] fouls. So when a defensive player reaches an arm all the way across an offensive player's body in order to prevent rebounding position, I fail to see how this will prevent future problems. He didn't just grab jersey - the arm was extended all the way across and it happened right in front of me. If they can't control themselves and avoid fouling at low speeds near the perimeter, I feel I'm only encouraging more contact at higher speeds and inside.

I too encourage a slow whistle to see how the play develops. It doesn't matter that it was right in front of you or that it was all the way across his body. If the play is just too rough or the game needs some calming down, call it quickly. Aside from that....see the whole play and the effect of the contact....if it made a difference, call it. It the shot goes in or the rebound doesn't come anywhere near them, don't call it....it's generally not a foul if there is no advantage.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by Stat-Man

I can give you one better from my sophomore year in HS. Shooter goes up and hits a 3. After the shot, he is fouled and the opposing team is over the limit for team fouls. He steps to the line for a potential 5-point play, but missed the front end of the 1-and-1.

It was a running joke for the rest of the year that he could hit contested 20 footers with ease, but couldn't shoot a free throw.

I can beat that. A1 makes a 3 point shot and is fouled by B1 after he returns to the floor. That was the 7th foul. A1 makes the first shot, misses the second, get the rebound, shoots and makes it. 6 points right there by the same player.

[inigo montoya]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I too encourage a slow whistle to see how the play develops. It doesn't matter that it was right in front of you or that it was all the way across his body. If the play is just too rough or the game needs some calming down, call it quickly. Aside from that....see the whole play and the effect of the contact....if it made a difference, call it. It the shot goes in or the rebound doesn't come anywhere near them, don't call it....it's generally not a foul if there is no advantage.

Thank you for your opinion. At this point in my life, I am more concerned with calling the game in a way is consistent with the rules and in making sure that we maintain control of it for 32 minutes. If by definition holding is not reaching your arm across an opponent's body and impeding his progress so that he cannot occupy a position on the court he would otherwise be legally entitled to, then I'm not sure what is.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by inigo montoya

Thank you for your opinion. At this point in my life, I am more concerned with calling the game in a way is consistent with the rules and in making sure that we maintain control of it for 32 minutes. If by definition holding is not reaching your arm across an opponent's body and impeding his progress so that he cannot occupy a position on the court he would otherwise be legally entitled to, then I'm not sure what is.

All of what you said is true, but what is missing is the concept of advantage/disadvantage. Contact alone doesn't make it a foul. The effect of the contact makes it a foul.

[Loudwhistle]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

This is absolutely wrong! The act of shooting begins with the habitual motion that precedes the release of a try. So as soon as you start the shooting motion, you're a shooter, regardless of whether you're airborne or not.

If you start the motion, get fouled, but never get airborne, you're still going to the line to shoot 2.

You absolutely can have a shooter without him/her being airborne.

Scrapper1,
Does the shooter, if they don't become airborne ever on the shot, have to release the ball in order to be considered a shooter? Some of the 5th graders don't jump with the ball and don't release the ball when they hear the whistle.

[DonInKansas]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Yes, just think about it this way - the term "airborne shooter" is actually redundant. You can't have a shooter without him/her being airborne. Except, of course, if it's 1960 and they're Don Nelson shooting a set shot.

You obviously haven't worked any games around here. There's some players with "credit card hops."

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Loudwhistle

Scrapper1,
Does the shooter, if they don't become airborne ever on the shot, have to release the ball in order to be considered a shooter? Some of the 5th graders don't jump with the ball and don't release the ball when they hear the whistle.

NO. The act of shooting begins with the starting of the motion. The foul could prevent the release of the ball, yet the player was still fouled in the act of shooting and is entitled to FTs.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by inigo montoya

Thank you for your opinion. At this point in my life, I am more concerned with calling the game in a way is consistent with the rules and in making sure that we maintain control of it for 32 minutes. If by definition holding is not reaching your arm across an opponent's body and impeding his progress so that he cannot occupy a position on the court he would otherwise be legally entitled to, then I'm not sure what is.

I don't mean this as offensive, but this mentality will only work if you are calling middle school girls games where nobody can work through some contact.

If you are working higher than this or want to, you need to learn to call based on advantage/disadvantage. Being consistent doesn't mean calling every bit of contact a foul.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

This is absolutely wrong! The act of shooting begins with the habitual motion that precedes the release of a try. So as soon as you start the shooting motion, you're a shooter, regardless of whether you're airborne or not.

If you start the motion, get fouled, but never get airborne, you're still going to the line to shoot 2.

You absolutely can have a shooter without him/her being airborne.

True, true...plus I can't even remember the last time I was airborne on a shot. Must have been about 20 years ago!! But I can still shoot...I just can't jump worth beans.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by inigo montoya

It was still fairly early in the game and B already had [six] fouls. So when a defensive player reaches an arm all the way across an offensive player's body in order to prevent rebounding position, I fail to see how this will prevent future problems. He didn't just grab jersey - the arm was extended all the way across and it happened right in front of me. If they can't control themselves and avoid fouling at low speeds near the perimeter, I feel I'm only encouraging more contact at higher speeds and inside.

No, you're not but you are missing the point. That point is too have a slow whistle and wait to see if the contact effects the play.

If the shot goes in, then the arm across the chest has no effect on the play. If a rebound goes to the opposite side, then there's no effect on the play. If the rebound comes off to that side, now you have a player at a disadvantage. TWEET!

If he knocks him to the floor, that's a different story.

Originally Posted by inigo montoya

Thank you for your opinion. At this point in my life, I am more concerned with calling the game in a way is consistent with the rules and in making sure that we maintain control of it for 32 minutes. If by definition holding is not reaching your arm across an opponent's body and impeding his progress so that he cannot occupy a position on the court he would otherwise be legally entitled to, then I'm not sure what is.

It's not just his opinion. It's the officiating philosophy of advantage/disadvatage that quality officals adhere to. To just blindly make a call because the rule book says something does NOT make one a good official. I would suggest you open your NFHS rule book and read the page before rule one. It explains this philosophy. There's no reason to call this a foul except that you think the rule book says to. It does NOT.

When you joined this forum in November, you told us that you were a 2nd year official. Don't take this the wrong way but that's apparent with this call. You were smart enough to join this forum. Take what the veterans here are giving you and add it to your game.

#1, SLOW your whistle down because I can guarantee you it's too fast. All new officials have this issue.

#2, WAIT and see the whole play. That may mena blowing your whistle late but that's okay. Watch an NBA game, they do it all the time.

Or, just ignore us as a bunch of old guys who don't know what we're talking about.

I hope you're smart enough to figure which road to choose.

[Da Official]

We discussed fouls when the team is in the bonus but what happens when B1 fouls A1 ("Rebounder") after the shot is up but before it goes in and there is less then 6 team fouls:

NFHS?


NCAA?

(If this doesnt' make sense let me know, Thanks!)

[Adam]

A gets the ball, whether or not the try is successful.