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-   -   Communication to get call straight (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/39925-communication-get-call-straight.html)

rainmaker Thu Nov 29, 2007 02:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgtg19
Newer officials must have their heads spinning. In other threads, they are being told not to throw their partners under the bus even when they obviously screw up (e.g., calling over and back on a dribbler whose 3-points have obviously not yet crossed the division line). And, here, there are being told to fix a partner's kicked rule, "Period."
See, Dan? This is the kind of mis-reading what you wrote that I was thinking of.

Bgtg, read his other post about coming in with information and letting the calling official make the change.

Dan_ref Thu Nov 29, 2007 02:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgtg19
Newer officials must have their heads spinning. In other threads, they are being told not to throw their partners under the bus even when they obviously screw up (e.g., calling over and back on a dribbler whose 3-points have obviously not yet crossed the division line). And, here, there are being told to fix a partner's kicked rule, "Period."
I'm not all that concerned with what others post here, nor am I concerned with how you interpret my posts (I guess I'm channeling Jeff again here big time...). But I wil try 1 more time...

If you know a partner kicked a RULE (not a judgement call) then you fix it. Period. In your BC violation case I cannot for the life of me imagine ever going to the T to question what he saw. Maybe you would...I would not.

Dan_ref Thu Nov 29, 2007 02:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
Right. I agree with this. But I know there are people who read the sentences "Get the call right no matter what" "Fix it. Period" and think that it means overruling. I just wanted to be sure I saw it spelled out clearly so that I could know for sure, and also so I can yell at anyone who tries to do the overrule thing on me. Although I have never displayed the jerkiosity that would require it.
Again, in my world if someone comes to me with a rule I may be about to kick I'm stopping and listening. That trust your partner thing...? Goes both ways.
Quote:

Which brings up another question....

What should I do when I call something, I'm right by rule and by judgment, and my partner comes it to change it? He (she's never do this, right, Snaqs:eek: ?) keeps insisting, and then finally steps out and overrules me. Do I just go with it? Im asking what to do there and then, not what to do in the locker room!
I already told you what to do.

The crew makes a decision. You do know how to work with others to come to a decision...right?

JRutledge Thu Nov 29, 2007 03:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgtg19
And I agree with others who are of the opinion that it matters not whether or not you are the "referee" on the game. Rut's opinion that the referee has the authority to overrule the call in the OP does not have a basis in the rules (as was pointed out by JAR's rules citations).
First of all if you are going to disagree with my point of view, at the very least accurately disagree with the point I was making. I did not say overrule. I did not even use that terminology. And if you disagree on the reason a basket should count, the Referee has some authority in that area. And I would even extend that issue to a couple of partners that disagree on a call; someone has to have to break the tie if you will. And this is not a judgment call; this is an obvious rules mistake so bad that something needs to be done. And in most situations if you are the Referee (at least that I am aware of) all officials are going to go down, not just the calling official if you let an obvious rules mistake go without any change.

Peace

kbilla Thu Nov 29, 2007 03:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
I'm not all that concerned with what others post here, nor am I concerned with how you interpret my posts (I guess I'm channeling Jeff again here big time...). But I wil try 1 more time...

If you know a partner kicked a RULE (not a judgement call) then you fix it. Period. In your BC violation case I cannot for the life of me imagine ever going to the T to question what he saw. Maybe you would...I would not.
BG does raise a valid point though about the confusion...I like you cannot ever imagine going to the T to question him in that backcourt situation either. What it seems to come down to in this case is that with the backcourt case, your partner blew the ball dead. At that point you are probably going to have something and if he makes a call you are probably going to just run with it and write it off (to yourself of course) to his poor judgement (or lack of rules knowledge) if you know for a fact that he kicked it. With the GT/BI vs. Tech scenario, both officials had a dead ball, the clock was killed, at that point you can get together and decide what you have. If you know for a fact that your partner is wrong you have an opportunity to correct him b/c regardless of the outcome you both had a dead ball. Picture doing the same with the BC scenario, are you going to run over there and correct him and then if he agrees just go with an IA whistle and give A the ball back? Makes your partner look like he had no clue what he was talking about. In the other example, the two of you get together, figure it out, then when you break the huddle, you all look like you know what you are doing by making the correct call....sorry if this is rambling, but I think the fine point/difference here is that with the BC scenario your parnter put himself out on an island, there isn't really a graceful way to get him off...with the GT/BI vs. Tech scenario, you have two whistles, you get together, figure it out and all come out smelling like roses...

JoeTheRef Thu Nov 29, 2007 03:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
First of all if you are going to disagree with my point of view, at the very least accurately disagree with the point I was making. I did not say overrule. I did not even use that terminology. And if you disagree on the reason a basket should count, the Referee has some authority in that area. And I would even extend that issue to a couple of partners that disagree on a call; someone has to have to break the tie if you will. And this is not a judgment call; this is an obvious rules mistake so bad that something needs to be done. And in most situations if you are the Referee (at least that I am aware of) all officials are going to go down, not just the calling official if you let an obvious rules mistake go without any change.

Peace
I don't know how to do that face and clapping hands thing, if I did it would be very appropriate for this post. You and Dan are saying it best, judgement calls is one thing; you won't hear a peep from me unless you ask for help or give me the confused look like you need help... Kicking a rule, that's a different beast and it shouldn't happen. And not to overstate the obvious, but the worse time to kick a rule would be the end of the game.

In regards to the highlighted portion of your post, every young "R", as well as young official needs to know that their decisions can be costly in their advancement in this avocation. I've seen more then one good official get bounced back to JV, or U2 because he couldn't handle being an R and by allowing rules to be kicked all over their games.

kbilla Thu Nov 29, 2007 03:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeTheRef
I don't know how to do that face and clapping hands thing, if I did it would be very appropriate for this post. You and Dan are saying it best, judgement calls is one thing; you won't hear a peep from me unless you ask for help or give me the confused look like you need help... Kicking a rule, that's a different beast and it shouldn't happen. And not to overstate the obvious, but the worse time to kick a rule would be the end of the game.
The only grey area here is that how do you know if your partner made an error in judgement or if he/she actually kicked a rule? The BC example for instance, if it is clear to you that it wasn't BC, how do you know if they just saw something different or if they truly don't know the rule? I am with you 100%, I just think this is causing a little confusion....

JRutledge Thu Nov 29, 2007 04:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbilla
The only grey area here is that how do you know if your partner made an error in judgement or if he/she actually kicked a rule? The BC example for instance, if it is clear to you that it wasn't BC, how do you know if they just saw something different or if they truly don't know the rule? I am with you 100%, I just think this is causing a little confusion....
A couple of things need to be mentioned. This is not the Lead's call (BC or GT call). It is that simple either way you slice it. Then I am going to approach them and tell them, yu could not have what you just called. For one on a GT call you must touch the ball. I can clearly tell them the defender did not touch the ball or in the case of a BC violation, how the ball got to the backcourt. This is not just a judgment issue, this is someone is calling something they are not in position to see or they could not rule on such a thing.

Once again, you can get caught up in the minutia of the rules, but then when you have no games because you allowed such an obvious mistake to go off. And that is why there are provisions for the Referee to take care of situations that are not clearly labeled in the rulebook. I would rather be slightly off with the rules than sitting completely at home because I did not want to correct an obvious mistake. Just look to the college ranks, they do not just get the person that made the mistake, they fine or suspend all officials at the scene of the crime. And at the College level the Referee holds a lot of reverence in practice. There is a reason you always see the top officials as the Referee. Where I live similar attitudes are put in place at the HS level (when it is assigned).

Peace

rainmaker Thu Nov 29, 2007 07:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
The crew makes a decision. You do know how to work with others to come to a decision...right?
Well, I"m getting better at it. Over time. But there are a few people that can just be so difficult...

just another ref Fri Nov 30, 2007 02:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
This is not the Lead's call (BC or GT call). It is that simple either way you slice it.
In the OP, I would have to say that it was his call. We have a steal near the division line, and two greyhounds took off on a two-on-none break. What we actually had for a few seconds, if you will, was a trail and a trail-er. When partner made the call, he was probably at the halfway point of the lane. I was somewhere approaching the division line. Read all the mechanics manuals you want, it still won't help you keep up with 17 year olds.

Rich Fri Nov 30, 2007 07:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeTheRef
I completely understand the "an official has no authority to set aside another officials call...", but if you know for a fact that one of your crew member is about to kick a rule where it can determine the outcome of the game, you may want to think hard about letting that happen. Somebody made you an "R" for a reason. Many of us have seen where referee careers were made for the good and the bad in situations like that. Many of us know of officials that have lost many assignments because they chose to kick a rule. Me personally, that's the first thing I say in my pre-game, and that is we will not kick a rule tonight, not intentionally that is.
Some of us are the R because we take turns with our partners and it's our turn. I have no more authority in this area as R than I do as U (or U1/U2).

Then again, usually when I say something's a rule, people do listen.

Rich Fri Nov 30, 2007 07:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgtg19
Newer officials must have their heads spinning. In other threads, they are being told not to throw their partners under the bus even when they obviously screw up (e.g., calling over and back on a dribbler whose 3-points have obviously not yet crossed the division line). And, here, there are being told to fix a partner's kicked rule, "Period."

I think JR's advice in this thread is the best for all these situations: go to your partner with information, let your partner exercise her/his judgment with this new information, and then live with her/his judgment. This would have worked in the "frustrating" partner thread, too. Go to your partner, ask what he saw, when he says that the dribbler's foot crossed the line, remind him of the rule and then give him an opportunity to be the big man and change his call. If he refuses to change, well, you've done *your* job. The school hired a three-person crew (or a two-person crew) to work the contest, they did not hire you alone and they are not paying you extra to be the crew hero.

And I agree with others who are of the opinion that it matters not whether or not you are the "referee" on the game. Rut's opinion that the referee has the authority to overrule the call in the OP does not have a basis in the rules (as was pointed out by JAR's rules citations).

Hopefully, we do not run into mules (too stubborn to change their call) too often. One thing we can control is our commitment to not becoming that kind of an official. Listen closely to your partner(s) if they come to you with information/wisdom and then make the best call you can, confident and secure that you will have the support of your crew mates.
This is one advantage to having a regular partner or crew. If I come in and tell my partner something like this, he'll say "OK" and change it. He knows I'm not coming unless he's really screwed up.

It's happened once in the past six years where he's kicked a rule -- changing the arrow on an AP throw in when he shouldn't have. We got together and he changed his ruling based on what I said, even though he still wasn't sure himself -- but he knew I wasn't coming unless I was 100% certain and he wasn't certain himself.

Rich Fri Nov 30, 2007 07:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
A couple of things need to be mentioned. This is not the Lead's call (BC or GT call). It is that simple either way you slice it. Then I am going to approach them and tell them, yu could not have what you just called. For one on a GT call you must touch the ball. I can clearly tell them the defender did not touch the ball or in the case of a BC violation, how the ball got to the backcourt. This is not just a judgment issue, this is someone is calling something they are not in position to see or they could not rule on such a thing.

Once again, you can get caught up in the minutia of the rules, but then when you have no games because you allowed such an obvious mistake to go off. And that is why there are provisions for the Referee to take care of situations that are not clearly labeled in the rulebook. I would rather be slightly off with the rules than sitting completely at home because I did not want to correct an obvious mistake. Just look to the college ranks, they do not just get the person that made the mistake, they fine or suspend all officials at the scene of the crime. And at the College level the Referee holds a lot of reverence in practice. There is a reason you always see the top officials as the Referee. Where I live similar attitudes are put in place at the HS level (when it is assigned).

Peace
It's different everywhere, the importance put on the referee. It's like the crew chief in college baseball -- I am usually assigned that way and all it means at the small college level is that I have to fill out any paperwork afterwards.

Things could change now that a designated tosser can be assigned. I hate tossing a jump ball, personally, so I'll be trying to get out of that more this season, even when it's my turn to be the R. Thank goodness the AP arrow was put in place right before I started officiating.

JRutledge Fri Nov 30, 2007 01:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref
In the OP, I would have to say that it was his call. We have a steal near the division line, and two greyhounds took off on a two-on-none break. What we actually had for a few seconds, if you will, was a trail and a trail-er. When partner made the call, he was probably at the halfway point of the lane. I was somewhere approaching the division line. Read all the mechanics manuals you want, it still won't help you keep up with 17 year olds.
First of all the Lead should not be making these kinds of calls. I made one of these calls during a college game about 3 years ago as a reaction to a quick play and my partner's disagreed with the call. So leave this to the Trail and Center officials. The Lead official does not have the perspective if they are doing their job to make this call properly. It is not about the mechanics book, it is about angles and being in position.

Secondly, if you cannot keep up with kids that are 17 year old and you are beat that badly, it is time to find some other level to work. About 2 weeks before the season I had a ruptured hamstring that I rehabbed for two weeks. When I came back for my first basketball, I could keep up adequately with 17 year olds. And I am in great shape and I hustle often (which is why I got hurt in the first place). Even if a player makes a steal and you get beat badly, you should not be so focused on the ball from the Lead position.

Peace

just another ref Sun Dec 23, 2007 02:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref

In the OP, I would have to say that it was his call. We have a steal near the division line, and two greyhounds took off on a two-on-none break. What we actually had for a few seconds, if you will, was a trail and a trail-er. When partner made the call, he was probably at the halfway point of the lane. I was somewhere approaching the division line. Read all the mechanics manuals you want, it still won't help you keep up with 17 year olds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
First of all the Lead should not be making these kinds of calls. I made one of these calls during a college game about 3 years ago as a reaction to a quick play and my partner's disagreed with the call. So leave this to the Trail and Center officials. The Lead official does not have the perspective if they are doing their job to make this call properly. It is not about the mechanics book, it is about angles and being in position.

Secondly, if you cannot keep up with kids that are 17 year old and you are beat that badly, it is time to find some other level to work. About 2 weeks before the season I had a ruptured hamstring that I rehabbed for two weeks. When I came back for my first basketball, I could keep up adequately with 17 year olds. And I am in great shape and I hustle often (which is why I got hurt in the first place). Even if a player makes a steal and you get beat badly, you should not be so focused on the ball from the Lead position.

Peace
Thought this thread was over, didn't see the last couple of posts until now.
You are going to have to draw me a picture here. This is a two whistle game.
Ball is knocked into the backcourt and B1 and B2 race each other to pick it up, which B1 did, probably about the top of the key. They proceeded to finish a two on none break, then A1 came in and slapped the board after the fact. So, if we would have had two of you calling this game, spell it out for me where you would have been positioned, before and after the steal.


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