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-   -   Scorebook/Scoreboard Error at End of Game (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/39911-scorebook-scoreboard-error-end-game.html)

Adam Wed Nov 28, 2007 03:30pm
Is the scoreboard even referenced in the rule book?

kbilla Wed Nov 28, 2007 03:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
The NFHS issued an official ruling before you were born, and that official ruling has never changed. The official ruling (amazingly enough) is in the official rules.

Rule 2-11-4...<i>"The scorer shall record the field goals made, the free throws made and missed, and keep a running summary of the points scored."</i>

Rule 2-11-11....<i>"If the mistake cannot be found, the referee shall accept the record of the <b>OFFICIAL SCOREBOOK</b>, unless he/she has knowledge which permits him/her to decide otherwise. If the discrepancy is in the score and the mistake is not resolved, the referee shall accept the progressive team totals of the <b>OFFICIAL SCOREBOOK</b>."</i>

<font size = +5><b>OFFICIAL SCOREBOOK!!!</b></font>

If the scoreboard and the scorebook don't match at <b>any</b> time during the game, are you really advocating that we should accept the scoreboard?

Rule 5-3...<i>"The winning team is the one which has accumulated the greater number of points when the game ends as in 2-2-4."</i>

Do you deliberately bring up nonsense like this to confuse newer officials?
ha ha! it's amazing what one can come up with when one applies the basics, well done! so just from a procedural point of view, how would this be fixed, and what would be the statute of limitations on something like this? what if the next day the home coach looked at the book and realized that it was wrong and confirmed with the visiting team, etc.....i guess it would have to be handled by the state association....hard to believe this could actually happen, but i suppose it could...

Adam Wed Nov 28, 2007 03:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbilla
ha ha! it's amazing what one can come up with when one applies the basics, well done! so just from a procedural point of view, how would this be fixed, and what would be the statute of limitations on something like this? what if the next day the home coach looked at the book and realized that it was wrong and confirmed with the visiting team, etc.....i guess it would have to be handled by the state association....hard to believe this could actually happen, but i suppose it could...
Take it up with the state, you're right.
Once I leave the court, the book is approved. The state will need to determine the reality of the final score, or if the book has it tied, the state will determine whether OT is played.

regardless, it's a good reminder to pay attention to the table towards the end of a close game.

kbilla Wed Nov 28, 2007 03:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Take it up with the state, you're right.
Once I leave the court, the book is approved. The state will need to determine the reality of the final score, or if the book has it tied, the state will determine whether OT is played.

regardless, it's a good reminder to pay attention to the table towards the end of a close game.
here's another one, what if they looked at the book an hour, day, whatever, later and realized that the game was actually tied?

Jurassic Referee Wed Nov 28, 2007 04:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbilla
here's another one, what if they looked at the book an hour, day, whatever, later and realized that the game was actually tied?
As someone pointed out waaaaay back, the rules cover that too. NFHS rule 2-2-4 says that the final score is <b>approved</b> when all officials have left the visual confines of the playing area. From our(the official's) standpoint, anything that happens after that is irrelevant as far as we're concerned. We can't do the scorer's job as well as ours. We just have to trust that they have done their job properly. If it comes out after the fact that the scorer screwed up, it's now up to the state/league to decide if they want to do anything further.

The official stance of the NFHS is not to accept any protests. That has never stopped individual states/leagues from doing so however.

cmckenna Wed Nov 28, 2007 05:16pm
I am still trying to figure out why anyone cares what the scoreboard says. In the OP the book was correct. The scoreboard is there for the fans and nothing else in my mind (well... maybe the clock).

kbilla Wed Nov 28, 2007 06:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmckenna
I am still trying to figure out why anyone cares what the scoreboard says. In the OP the book was correct. The scoreboard is there for the fans and nothing else in my mind (well... maybe the clock).
And the coaches to determine how they will manage the game...you can't just discount out of hand that the scoreboard is important...NOT as the official keeper of the game result, I agree the book is final here, but the fact that they are different IS a serious problem and DOES potentially impact the outcome of the game...

kbilla Wed Nov 28, 2007 06:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
As someone pointed out waaaaay back, the rules cover that too. NFHS rule 2-2-4 says that the final score is <b>approved</b> when all officials have left the visual confines of the playing area. From our(the official's) standpoint, anything that happens after that is irrelevant as far as we're concerned. We can't do the scorer's job as well as ours. We just have to trust that they have done their job properly. If it comes out after the fact that the scorer screwed up, it's now up to the state/league to decide if they want to do anything further.

The official stance of the NFHS is not to accept any protests. That has never stopped individual states/leagues from doing so however.
Right, understood, all I am saying is if it was determined after the fact that the other team actually won by a point, the association could always award the win to the other team after the fact...but if they are tied what do you do have them go back and play OT? Agreed, this is not the officials concern, but it would be interesting...

just another ref Wed Nov 28, 2007 07:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Rule 2-11-4...<i>"The scorer shall record the field goals made, the free throws made and missed, and keep a running summary of the points scored."</i>

Rule 2-11-11....<i>"If the mistake cannot be found, the referee shall accept the record of the <b>OFFICIAL SCOREBOOK</b>, unless he/she has knowledge which permits him/her to decide otherwise. If the discrepancy is in the score and the mistake is not resolved, the referee shall accept the progressive team totals of the <b>OFFICIAL SCOREBOOK</b>."</i>

<font size = +5><b>OFFICIAL SCOREBOOK!!!</b></font>

If the scoreboard and the scorebook don't match at <b>any</b> time during the game, are you really advocating that we should accept the scoreboard?

Rule 5-3...<i>"The winning team is the one which has accumulated the greater number of points when the game ends as in 2-2-4."</i>
So, picture this. Scoreboard says team A leads by 1 in the last minute. During a time out, the referee checks to be sure that the book and the scoreboard agree and is assured that they do. A runs outs the clock and begins to celebrate. The officials leave the court. Scorer looks down, "Oh, silly me! I looked at the board wrong. B is actually up by one. I guess they win."

Is there a specific documented procedure for this situation?

Dan_ref Wed Nov 28, 2007 07:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref
So, picture this. Scoreboard says team A leads by 1 in the last minute. During a time out, the referee checks to be sure that the book and the scoreboard agree and is assured that they do. A runs outs the clock and begins to celebrate. The officials leave the court. Scorer looks down, "Oh, silly me! I looked at the board wrong. B is actually up by one. I guess they win."

Is there a specific documented procedure for this situation?
Yes.

They lose.

just another ref Wed Nov 28, 2007 07:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Yes.

They lose.

Who loses?

rainmaker Wed Nov 28, 2007 07:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref
So, picture this. Scoreboard says team A leads by 1 in the last minute. During a time out, the referee checks to be sure that the book and the scoreboard agree and is assured that they do. A runs outs the clock and begins to celebrate. The officials leave the court. Scorer looks down, "Oh, silly me! I looked at the board wrong. B is actually up by one. I guess they win."

Is there a specific documented procedure for this situation?
I was wondering when anyone ever looks at the book, if there's no reason. I mean, seriously what if the wrong score shows up in the paper? That's still not official, I know, but does anyone really actually look at the book? Routinely?

JoeTheRef Wed Nov 28, 2007 09:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref
So, picture this. Scoreboard says team A leads by 1 in the last minute. During a time out, the referee checks to be sure that the book and the scoreboard agree and is assured that they do. A runs outs the clock and begins to celebrate. The officials leave the court. Scorer looks down, "Oh, silly me! I looked at the board wrong. B is actually up by one. I guess they win."

Is there a specific documented procedure for this situation?
When I ask my scorer during a timeout "is the official scorebook correct", and that person says yes, then I'm fine and we go with the book. The visiting team has a scorer as well, and by rule, the official scorer MUST compare with the visiting scorer after each goal, foul timouts and at the end of each quarter and extra period and to notify the referee immediately if any discrepancy. So if the board is incorrect and the book is correct, and I ask the table loud enough so both the visitor and official scorer hears me, is the book ok and I get a thumbs up or a nod of approval from the official scorer, I'm gone. So in your scenario, Team A loses.

Mark Dexter Wed Nov 28, 2007 09:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
I was wondering when anyone ever looks at the book, if there's no reason. I mean, seriously what if the wrong score shows up in the paper? That's still not official, I know, but does anyone really actually look at the book? Routinely?
Not sure if anyone ever does go back and look in the book, but I always mark the final score in ink just in case. I also constantly check the scores in the last few minutes of any game and will signal the R with a "thumbs up" after the horn if everything matches.

Hopefully the scorer learned from this. I've (thankfully) always been lucky enough to only have my errors occur with plenty of time left on the clock.

just another ref Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeTheRef
When I ask my scorer during a timeout "is the official scorebook correct", and that person says yes, then I'm fine and we go with the book. The visiting team has a scorer as well, and by rule, the official scorer MUST compare with the visiting scorer after each goal, foul timouts and at the end of each quarter and extra period and to notify the referee immediately if any discrepancy. So if the board is incorrect and the book is correct, and I ask the table loud enough so both the visitor and official scorer hears me, is the book ok and I get a thumbs up or a nod of approval from the official scorer, I'm gone. So in your scenario, Team A loses.
That's what I always thought, but with all this reference to accepting the score from the official book when there is a discrepancy set me to wondering. I see that 2-11-11 refers to resolving a difference between books, and has nothing to do with the scoreboard. As Snaqwells asked, is the scoreboard even mentioned in the books? Referee's duties include approving the final score. What exactly does approval consist of? Officials who are satisfied that everything is ok routinely run off the floor immediately when the final buzzer sounds, do they not? This way we can avoid technical fouls for profanity and jersey removal and that sort of thing.:) So, for that matter, what if the scorer finds the mistake before the officials leave? The team which has successfully stalled out the final minute is then told, "Oops, scoring error. Y'all are behind by one instead of up by one. Sorry, you lose."
Would this not be the ultimate rip-off?


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