T or let it ride?

[Coltdoggs]

I had a T today that I'd like some feedback on....didn't really want to call it cause I'd not had much issue with the coach but but I felt the he put me in a bad position and basically challenged me....

First half team fouls were 9-4.....Early in the second half with team fouls 2-2.... ...Coach of team that had 9 in the first is barking about a no call I had at the other end on a rebound by his C.......As I set up at T to put the ball in, in front of his bench due to a tipped pass OOB... he asks me "Are you going to call any fouls on them today?"...Looking up at the scoreboard and seeing it's 2-2..I pointed to it...His response was "What does that mean?"...I said "Coach, it means we've been calling fouls on both ends of the floor....sit down and coach your team from the bench the rest of the game.

His response was "I'm NOT sitting down unless you T me up"

In 7 years, I don't think I've ever had a coach say that to me....They've certainly earned Ts from me...It's kind of along the lines of threating a coach with a T which I would never do but that's how I felt when he said it...Almost as if to see if I was willing to exercise my option to T....

SO what do you think...

[RookieDude]

JMO...don't tell a Coach to "sit down and coach your team from the bench the rest of the game."

....don't tell a Coach to "shut up"...don't get excited, stay calm...etc.

You can manage a game better than that...right?

[Mark Padgett]

I would have obliged him with a flagrant. Buh-bye.

[blindzebra]

I think you need to work on your communication with coaches.

You lowered yourself to his level, he felt challenged and you caused the T.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

..I said "Coach, it means we've been calling fouls on both ends of the floor....sit down and coach your team from the bench the rest of the game...

Why did you tell him to sit down? Is it in the rules that coaches have to stay seated? If he has the right to stand, you can't force him to sit unless he earns his seatbelt. But I'm guessing there's more to the story, and you had a good reason to say this.

[Coltdoggs]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Why did you tell him to sit down? Is it in the rules that coaches have to stay seated? If he has the right to stand, you can't force him to sit unless he earns his seatbelt. But I'm guessing there's more to the story, and you had a good reason to say this.

This was 8th grade girls Holiday Tourney (travel and AAU teams I believe...we had some teams down from Iowa)....

Playing under IHSAA and NFHS rules, so technically, he should only be up to instruct/coach his players...Which for the most part he was doing, that's why I said in my OP that I didn't really want to go this route....we were not having much issues but there were some calls both sides were questioning and wanting to give me their understanding of the play/rule....

There was one play on a defensive rebound in the first half where his player got the rebound and her momentum carried her into two other players on the other team and knocked them down like bowling pins...During a TO he tells me "I can't penalize her cause she's tall"...I explained what I saw and he told me "Once she secures the ball, there should be no foul"....I replied to him that "Coach, when she secures the rebound in the air, she's gotta stay in control when she comes to the ground and can't crash into the other team knocking them to the floor...that's a foul"....

Like I said...nothing really out of control from this coach but I felt his comment about us not calling any fouls on them was along the lines of "5 on 7 out there"...which would earn a T from me....so I told him to have a seat...Perhaps I should have just said that and walked away or gave him the "stop sign"...

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

This was 8th grade girls Holiday Tourney (travel and AAU teams I believe...we had some teams down from Iowa)....

Playing under IHSAA and NFHS rules, so technically, he should only be up to instruct/coach his players...Which for the most part he was doing, that's why I said in my OP that I didn't really want to go this route....we were not having much issues but there were some calls both sides were questioning and wanting to give me their understanding of the play/rule....

There was one play on a defensive rebound in the first half where his player got the rebound and her momentum carried her into two other players on the other team and knocked them down like bowling pins...During a TO he tells me "I can't penalize her cause she's tall"...I explained what I saw and he told me "Once she secures the ball, there should be no foul"....I replied to him that "Coach, when she secures the rebound in the air, she's gotta stay in control when she comes to the ground and can't crash into the other team knocking them to the floor...that's a foul"....

Like I said...nothing really out of control from this coach but I felt his comment about us not calling any fouls on them was along the lines of "5 on 7 out there"...which would earn a T from me....so I told him to have a seat...Perhaps I should have just said that and walked away or gave him the "stop sign"...

Seems to be a bad use of preventive officiating - too much conversing. First rule, never answer a comment ("You can't penalize her for being tall"). Second rule, never answer a "leading" question ("Are you going to...?") unless it's with "I hear you coach". Then if I hear more I usually say, "That's enough coach." Then after that it's a T with no emotion. This changes if the comments or questions are unsportsmanlike.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

T...we were not having much issues but there were some calls both sides were questioning and wanting to give me their understanding of the play/rule.....

Had you gotten to the point of, "I've heard enough, coach."?

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

Like I said...nothing really out of control from this coach but I felt his comment about us not calling any fouls on them was along the lines of "5 on 7 out there"...which would earn a T from me...

This doesn't sound the same to me. "5 on 7" is a direct accusation. "Aren't you gonna call a foul on them?" is more of a complaint. IMO

..

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

so I told him to have a seat...Perhaps I should have just said that and walked away or gave him the "stop sign"...

If the stop sign is used in your area, that might have been good, or walk him over to the bench and then hustle back to inbound the ball.

I always have trouble being appropriate with coaches, and it's something I keep having to work on. But a couple things I'm starting to get the hang of 1) don't do or say anything that could conceivably be construed as baiting. And don't rise to any bait he may throw out. 2) Don't ever tell them what to do. Don't ever tell them what you're going to do. Just do it when it's necessary. 3) In looking back, if the T made the game better (coach quit nagging, went back to coaching, is what often happens) it was a good T at the right time. If you're not sure you should have, you might have whacked too soon. 4) Use it as a learning experience. Don't sweat it. Don't lose sleep over it (I'm still working on this one).

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

Perhaps I should have just said that and walked away or gave him the "stop sign"...

Now you're talking! Good job!

Oh...and speaking of talking...you are doing WAY to much with the Coach, IMO.
Just keep it brief...and don't feel like you have to explain every call.

i.e...when the big girl knocked down the others...simply say something like, "Coach, she displaced them." Enough said.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

Now you're talking! Good job!

Oh...and speaking of talking...you are doing WAY to much with the Coach, IMO.
Just keep it brief...and don't feel like you have to explain every call.

i.e...when the big girl knocked down the others...simply say something like, "Coach, she displaced them." Enough said.

Especially at the 8th grade level. Coaches generally don't understand all the details, even if they do have the basics down. It's hard not to want to explain. Believe me I know. I"ve done A LOT of 8th grade in my years. You need to work on developing a few standard responses such as "Legal guarding position" and as RD says above, "displacement, coach".

Another response I use a lot when a coach is nagging is a very dispassionate "Thank you". If the coach asks a direct question, use a standard response. Otherwise say, "Thank you" and nod. This means, "I heard you". And that's all it means. "She's moving!!" "Thank you" "That's a foul!!" "Thank you" "They're all over us!!" "Thank you". You are acknowledging that the coach exists and that he's concerned about what's happening, and that's all. It really, really helps.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Another response I use a lot when a coach is nagging is a very dispassionate "Thank you". If the coach asks a direct question, use a standard response. Otherwise say, "Thank you" and nod. This means, "I heard you". And that's all it means. "She's moving!!" "Thank you" "That's a foul!!" "Thank you" "They're all over us!!" "Thank you". You are acknowledging that the coach exists and that he's concerned about what's happening, and that's all. It really, really helps.

I'm gonna try to use this one - so Rain, "Thank you."

I learned first hand from two evaluators this weekend a Stop Sign is NOT to be used in our league - I'll file that one too!

[blindzebra]

Really simple, address the behavior, not what was said.

He said something out of line, don't try to correct him about what he said being wrong, correct that what he said was inappropriate.

Coach: blah, blah, blah

You: Coach this is the only response you will get from comments like that...it stops, I've heard enough

Then walk away.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Especially at the 8th grade level. Coaches generally don't understand all the details, even if they do have the basics down. It's hard not to want to explain. Believe me I know. I"ve done A LOT of 8th grade in my years. You need to work on developing a few standard responses such as "Legal guarding position" and as RD says above, "displacement, coach".

Another response I use a lot when a coach is nagging is a very dispassionate "Thank you". If the coach asks a direct question, use a standard response. Otherwise say, "Thank you" and nod. This means, "I heard you". And that's all it means. "She's moving!!" "Thank you" "That's a foul!!" "Thank you" "They're all over us!!" "Thank you". You are acknowledging that the coach exists and that he's concerned about what's happening, and that's all. It really, really helps.

I don't like it.

If I'm a coach and I hear thank you like that I'm going to take it as sarcastic and you being a jerk.

I can easily see it escalate the situation.

[tomegun]

I went back to look at Juulie's "Thank you" post. This is how I read it and I'm saying this without inserting a whole bunch of my personal feelings into it. Too much bickering for a Sunday night - a Sunday night away from home for me (the older I get the more I want to say home. Is there a phobia for that?).

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Another response I use a lot when a coach is nagging is a very dispassionate "Thank you".

I'm understanding this as a somewhat dry response. I find nothing wrong with that.

Originally Posted by rainmaker

If the coach asks a direct question, use a standard response.

OK, do you mean standard response or appropriate response? I read that as one response regardless of the question. Here is where I would give an answer to that specific question - my answer to the next question may or may not be the same depending on the question. Also, remember that we cannot continue to give the coach the same answer all night because they don't expect the same situations they are questioning to continue all night. Sort of like admitting to a coach you kicked one. He/she may accept it the first time, but you can't keep kicking them all night.

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Otherwise say, "Thank you" and nod. This means, "I heard you". And that's all it means. "She's moving!!" "Thank you" "That's a foul!!" "Thank you" "They're all over us!!" "Thank you". You are acknowledging that the coach exists and that he's concerned about what's happening, and that's all. It really, really helps.

Again, these are responses to comments which I feel unnecessary. Especially doing two-man, which I assume some newer officials still do largely, there just isn't time for officials to continually listen to and respond to coaches. It becomes a problem and then you must go down a different path.
So if I were to answer these comments. If the same coach continually says things like this all game, it will get old fast. I cannot say what my response would be for sure because it would be a dynamic situation. However, "Thank you" doesn't come to mind.
One of my good friends works in the Pac-10, WAC and Mountain West. When I first got to Las Vegas he was still working high school because there just isn't a lot of ball to work in and around Vegas. He is a natural at communicating with coaches and not because he knows all the "witty" comebacks (I always wonder why people want to hear this and find it strange when they say they might use what someone else said). His communication is natural. It isn't always up and it isn't always down, it is appropriate for whatever the situation needs. He can go from telling a player he is from the hood too in a colorful manner to laughing and joking with Lute Olson. The cherry on top of all this is the fact that being in games with a coach over and over helps. That familiarity makes the communication easier for both the coach and the official.

I hope what I said makes sense without being aimed at anyone in particular. If it doesn't make sense, I'm away from home - which means I'm uncomfortable - I'm getting tired and I have been on this computer too long doing some research for other things.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

Playing under IHSAA and NFHS rules, so technically, he should only be up to instruct/coach his players...Which for the most part he was doing, that's why I said in my OP that I didn't really want to go this route....we were not having much issues but there were some calls both sides were questioning and wanting to give me their understanding of the play/rule....

Was this played in Kansas?
This is not NFHS rule, and I've not heard that it's the Indiana rule either.