T or let it ride?

Coltdoggs · #1 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 24, 2007, 06:09pm

I had a T today that I'd like some feedback on....didn't really want to call it cause I'd not had much issue with the coach but but I felt the he put me in a bad position and basically challenged me....

First half team fouls were 9-4.....Early in the second half with team fouls 2-2.... ...Coach of team that had 9 in the first is barking about a no call I had at the other end on a rebound by his C.......As I set up at T to put the ball in, in front of his bench due to a tipped pass OOB... he asks me "Are you going to call any fouls on them today?"...Looking up at the scoreboard and seeing it's 2-2..I pointed to it...His response was "What does that mean?"...I said "Coach, it means we've been calling fouls on both ends of the floor....sit down and coach your team from the bench the rest of the game.

His response was "I'm NOT sitting down unless you T me up"

In 7 years, I don't think I've ever had a coach say that to me....They've certainly earned Ts from me...It's kind of along the lines of threating a coach with a T which I would never do but that's how I felt when he said it...Almost as if to see if I was willing to exercise my option to T....

SO what do you think...

RookieDude · #2 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 24, 2007, 06:24pm

JMO...don't tell a Coach to "sit down and coach your team from the bench the rest of the game."

....don't tell a Coach to "shut up"...don't get excited, stay calm...etc.

You can manage a game better than that...right?

Mark Padgett · #3 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 24, 2007, 06:42pm

I would have obliged him with a flagrant. Buh-bye.

blindzebra · #4 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 24, 2007, 06:48pm

I think you need to work on your communication with coaches.

You lowered yourself to his level, he felt challenged and you caused the T.

rainmaker · #5 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 24, 2007, 06:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

..I said "Coach, it means we've been calling fouls on both ends of the floor....sit down and coach your team from the bench the rest of the game...

Why did you tell him to sit down? Is it in the rules that coaches have to stay seated? If he has the right to stand, you can't force him to sit unless he earns his seatbelt. But I'm guessing there's more to the story, and you had a good reason to say this.

Coltdoggs · #6 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 24, 2007, 07:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Why did you tell him to sit down? Is it in the rules that coaches have to stay seated? If he has the right to stand, you can't force him to sit unless he earns his seatbelt. But I'm guessing there's more to the story, and you had a good reason to say this.

This was 8th grade girls Holiday Tourney (travel and AAU teams I believe...we had some teams down from Iowa)....

Playing under IHSAA and NFHS rules, so technically, he should only be up to instruct/coach his players...Which for the most part he was doing, that's why I said in my OP that I didn't really want to go this route....we were not having much issues but there were some calls both sides were questioning and wanting to give me their understanding of the play/rule....

There was one play on a defensive rebound in the first half where his player got the rebound and her momentum carried her into two other players on the other team and knocked them down like bowling pins...During a TO he tells me "I can't penalize her cause she's tall"...I explained what I saw and he told me "Once she secures the ball, there should be no foul"....I replied to him that "Coach, when she secures the rebound in the air, she's gotta stay in control when she comes to the ground and can't crash into the other team knocking them to the floor...that's a foul"....

Like I said...nothing really out of control from this coach but I felt his comment about us not calling any fouls on them was along the lines of "5 on 7 out there"...which would earn a T from me....so I told him to have a seat...Perhaps I should have just said that and walked away or gave him the "stop sign"...

#7 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 24, 2007, 07:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

This was 8th grade girls Holiday Tourney (travel and AAU teams I believe...we had some teams down from Iowa)....

Playing under IHSAA and NFHS rules, so technically, he should only be up to instruct/coach his players...Which for the most part he was doing, that's why I said in my OP that I didn't really want to go this route....we were not having much issues but there were some calls both sides were questioning and wanting to give me their understanding of the play/rule....

There was one play on a defensive rebound in the first half where his player got the rebound and her momentum carried her into two other players on the other team and knocked them down like bowling pins...During a TO he tells me "I can't penalize her cause she's tall"...I explained what I saw and he told me "Once she secures the ball, there should be no foul"....I replied to him that "Coach, when she secures the rebound in the air, she's gotta stay in control when she comes to the ground and can't crash into the other team knocking them to the floor...that's a foul"....

Like I said...nothing really out of control from this coach but I felt his comment about us not calling any fouls on them was along the lines of "5 on 7 out there"...which would earn a T from me....so I told him to have a seat...Perhaps I should have just said that and walked away or gave him the "stop sign"...

Seems to be a bad use of preventive officiating - too much conversing. First rule, never answer a comment ("You can't penalize her for being tall"). Second rule, never answer a "leading" question ("Are you going to...?") unless it's with "I hear you coach". Then if I hear more I usually say, "That's enough coach." Then after that it's a T with no emotion. This changes if the comments or questions are unsportsmanlike.

rainmaker · #8 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 24, 2007, 07:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

T...we were not having much issues but there were some calls both sides were questioning and wanting to give me their understanding of the play/rule.....

Had you gotten to the point of, "I've heard enough, coach."?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

Like I said...nothing really out of control from this coach but I felt his comment about us not calling any fouls on them was along the lines of "5 on 7 out there"...which would earn a T from me...

This doesn't sound the same to me. "5 on 7" is a direct accusation. "Aren't you gonna call a foul on them?" is more of a complaint. IMO

..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

so I told him to have a seat...Perhaps I should have just said that and walked away or gave him the "stop sign"...

If the stop sign is used in your area, that might have been good, or walk him over to the bench and then hustle back to inbound the ball.

I always have trouble being appropriate with coaches, and it's something I keep having to work on. But a couple things I'm starting to get the hang of 1) don't do or say anything that could conceivably be construed as baiting. And don't rise to any bait he may throw out. 2) Don't ever tell them what to do. Don't ever tell them what you're going to do. Just do it when it's necessary. 3) In looking back, if the T made the game better (coach quit nagging, went back to coaching, is what often happens) it was a good T at the right time. If you're not sure you should have, you might have whacked too soon. 4) Use it as a learning experience. Don't sweat it. Don't lose sleep over it (I'm still working on this one).

RookieDude · #9 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 24, 2007, 07:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

Perhaps I should have just said that and walked away or gave him the "stop sign"...

Now you're talking! Good job!

Oh...and speaking of talking...you are doing WAY to much with the Coach, IMO.
Just keep it brief...and don't feel like you have to explain every call.

i.e...when the big girl knocked down the others...simply say something like, "Coach, she displaced them." Enough said.

IREFU2 · #10 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 24, 2007, 07:28pm

Pointing to the score board is just asking for trouble and baiting him as well. As officials, we dont want to seem like we are treating the coach like a child i.e. telling him to sit down. Just acknowledge him or give him a warning....

rainmaker · #11 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 24, 2007, 07:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RookieDude

Now you're talking! Good job!

Oh...and speaking of talking...you are doing WAY to much with the Coach, IMO.
Just keep it brief...and don't feel like you have to explain every call.

i.e...when the big girl knocked down the others...simply say something like, "Coach, she displaced them." Enough said.

Especially at the 8th grade level. Coaches generally don't understand all the details, even if they do have the basics down. It's hard not to want to explain. Believe me I know. I"ve done A LOT of 8th grade in my years. You need to work on developing a few standard responses such as "Legal guarding position" and as RD says above, "displacement, coach".

Another response I use a lot when a coach is nagging is a very dispassionate "Thank you". If the coach asks a direct question, use a standard response. Otherwise say, "Thank you" and nod. This means, "I heard you". And that's all it means. "She's moving!!" "Thank you" "That's a foul!!" "Thank you" "They're all over us!!" "Thank you". You are acknowledging that the coach exists and that he's concerned about what's happening, and that's all. It really, really helps.

grunewar · #12 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 24, 2007, 07:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Another response I use a lot when a coach is nagging is a very dispassionate "Thank you". If the coach asks a direct question, use a standard response. Otherwise say, "Thank you" and nod. This means, "I heard you". And that's all it means. "She's moving!!" "Thank you" "That's a foul!!" "Thank you" "They're all over us!!" "Thank you". You are acknowledging that the coach exists and that he's concerned about what's happening, and that's all. It really, really helps.

I'm gonna try to use this one - so Rain, "Thank you."

I learned first hand from two evaluators this weekend a Stop Sign is NOT to be used in our league - I'll file that one too!

blindzebra · #13 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 24, 2007, 07:37pm

Really simple, address the behavior, not what was said.

He said something out of line, don't try to correct him about what he said being wrong, correct that what he said was inappropriate.

Coach: blah, blah, blah

You: Coach this is the only response you will get from comments like that...it stops, I've heard enough

Then walk away.

blindzebra · #14 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 24, 2007, 07:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Especially at the 8th grade level. Coaches generally don't understand all the details, even if they do have the basics down. It's hard not to want to explain. Believe me I know. I"ve done A LOT of 8th grade in my years. You need to work on developing a few standard responses such as "Legal guarding position" and as RD says above, "displacement, coach".

Another response I use a lot when a coach is nagging is a very dispassionate "Thank you". If the coach asks a direct question, use a standard response. Otherwise say, "Thank you" and nod. This means, "I heard you". And that's all it means. "She's moving!!" "Thank you" "That's a foul!!" "Thank you" "They're all over us!!" "Thank you". You are acknowledging that the coach exists and that he's concerned about what's happening, and that's all. It really, really helps.

I don't like it.

If I'm a coach and I hear thank you like that I'm going to take it as sarcastic and you being a jerk.

I can easily see it escalate the situation.

rainmaker · #15 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 24, 2007, 09:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by blindzebra

I don't like it.

If I'm a coach and I hear thank you like that I'm going to take it as sarcastic and you being a jerk.

I can easily see it escalate the situation.

Like what? I suppose it depends on the tone of voice. I've worked hard at keeping the sarcasm out. It's worked for me. Worked very well. *shrug*