U mayk da cawl

[Adam]

Why not call these, though, since this is a time when the defense is prevented from touching the ball?

[refnrev]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

NF rules. A1 shooting a 3 pointer. While in the air but before the release, he is fouled by B1. After the release, but before returning to the floor, A1 is also fouled by B2. While the shot is in the air, A2 fouls B3. The ball, while traveling toward the hoop but not yet in the cylinder, is touched by A3. Also before the ball is in the cylinder, B4 grabs the rim and snaps it. The ball goes in. Immediately, Coach B yells out a profanity at you personally and when you turn your head, you discover A4 and B4 are both wearing illegal jerseys and Coach A is out of the box punching Coach B. What's the call(s)?

OK - it sounds silly and it would never happen (probably) but it's a good exercise in knowing and applying rules. Any takers?

_______________________________________

I'm praying for an inadvertent whistle before the shot and we are going to the AP baby!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by refnrev

_______________________________________

I'm praying for an inadvertent whistle before the shot and we are going to the AP baby!

Just have faith, rev, I'm sure there was one. You just need to claim it.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

NF rules. A1 shooting a 3 pointer. While in the air but before the release, he is fouled by B1. After the release, but before returning to the floor, A1 is also fouled by B2. While the shot is in the air, A2 fouls B3. The ball, while traveling toward the hoop but not yet in the cylinder, is touched by A3. Also before the ball is in the cylinder, B4 grabs the rim and snaps it. The ball goes in. Immediately, Coach B yells out a profanity at you personally and when you turn your head, you discover A4 and B4 are both wearing illegal jerseys and Coach A is out of the box punching Coach B. What's the call(s)?

OK - it sounds silly and it would never happen (probably) but it's a good exercise in knowing and applying rules. Any takers?

Okay, I have stopped taking my medications for a few days and 'The Preacher' and I had a game together tonight. Therefore, I will attempt to make a ruling on Mark's play. Please bear with me while I break down the situation.


The situation in order:

SITUATION:

Play 1) A1 attempts a 3 pt. FG.

Play 2) A1 is fouled by B1 while in the act of shooting (the ball is still in A1's hands).

Play 3) After A1 has released the ball and while still an airborne shooter, A1 is fouled by B2.

Play 4) While A1's try is in the air, A2 fouls B3.

Play 5) While A1's try is still on its way up, the ball is touched by A3.

Play 6) While A1's try is still in the air but outside the basket cylinder, B4 grabs the ring and snaps. The ball goes throw the basket.

Play 7) Head Coach B addresses you in an unsportsmanlike manner.

Play 8) A4 and B4 are wearing illegal jerserys.

Play 9) Head Coach A has left Team A's bench area to punch Head Coach B.


RULING:

Rulings 1, 2, and 3) The fouls by B1 and B2 constitute a false multiple foul. Each foul in a false multiple foul carries it own penalty. See Ruling (6): A1's 3 pt. attempt is successful. Score three points for A1 (See Ruling (6).) and Team A and A1 will be awarded one free throw for B1's foul and one free throw for B2's foul. B1 and B2's fouls are personal fouls and are counted toward their five PF and TF's for disqualification and is counted toward Team B's seven and ten team fouls for the half.

Ruling 4) A2's foul against B3 is a common foul and coupled with B1 and B2's fouls against A1, makes B1, B2, and A2's fouls part of a false double foul. If Team B is in the bonus, B3 will be awarded free throws per the appropriate bonus situation. A2's foul is a personal foul and is counted toward his five PF and TF's for disqualification and is counted toward Team a's seven and ten team fouls for the half. NOTE: Based upon the information given, I have assumed that A2's foul was not a simultaneous foul with B2's foul in Item (3).

Ruling 5) A3's touching of the ball does not affect the status of the ball.

Ruling 6) Based upon the information, B4's actions are not a violation, but it is a technical foul for grabbing the ring. B4's technical foul and is counted toward his five PF and TF's for disqualification and is counted toward Team a's seven and ten team fouls for the half. Team A is awarded two free throws (attempted by any of the five Team A players in the game or any one or two incoming substitutes). Score the 3 pt. field goal. See Rulings (1, 2, and 3).

Ruling 7) Technical foul by Head Coach B. Team A is awarded two free throws (attempted by any of the five Team A players in the game or any one or two incoming substitutes). Head Coach B also loses his coaching box privileges if the game is being played in a state that uses the coaching box. Head Coach B's TF is a direct TF and is counted toward his two direct TF's or three direct and/or indirect TF's for disqualification and toward Team B's seven and ten team fouls for the half.

Ruling 8) A4 and B4's technical fouls are a false double foul and are simultaneous fouls therefore no free throws are awarded to either team. A4 and B4 fouls are counted toward their five PF and TF's for disqualification and is counted toward their team's seven and ten team fouls for the half.

Ruling 9) Head Coach A has committed a flagrant technical foul for unsportsmanlike conduct. Head Coach A is disqualified from further participation and is ejected from the game. Team B s awarded two free throws (attempted by any of the five Team A players in the game or any one or two incoming substitutes). Head Coach A's replacement loses the coaching box privileges if the game is being played in a state that uses the coaching box. Head Coach A's TF is counted toward Team A's seven and ten team fouls for the half.

Order of penalties.

Penalties 1, 2, and 3) A1 is awarded two free throw from Rulings (1, 2, and 3). No players are lined up on the free throw lane.

Penalty 4) If Team B is in the bonus, B3 is awarded free throw(s) with no players lined up on the free throw lane. If Team B is not in the bonus, go to Penalty (5).

Penalty 5) There is no penalty because there was no infraction of the rules. See Ruling (5).

Penalty 6) B4 is is charged with a technical foul for grabbing the ring. Team A is awarded two free throws (attempted by any of the five Team A players in the game or any one or two incoming substitutes). No players are lined up along the free throw lane. See Ruling (5).

Penalty 7) Team A is awarded two free throws (attempted by any of the five Team A players in the game or any one or two incoming substitutes). No players are lined up along the free throw lane.

Penalty 8) Simultaneous TF's, go to Penalty (9). BUT, B4 is disqualfied because his TF is his second one of the game.

Penalty 9) Team B is awarded two free throws (attempted by any of the five Team B players in the game or any one or two incoming substitutes). No players are lined up along the free throw lane. And then Team B is awarded a throw-in at the divisioin line opposite the Scorer's/Timer's Table.

THE END!!

MTD, Sr.

[Adam]

That's the MTD we've all come to know.

[jdw3018]

Two questions, Mark. One, why would you construe that a false multiple rather than a multiple? I see two fouls on an airborne shooter being "approximately" at the same time, as the rule says.

Secondly, the touching of the shot by A3 does impact the try if he is inside the 3-point line and/or intentional.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Two questions, Mark. One, why would you construe that a false multiple rather than a multiple? I see two fouls on an airborne shooter being "approximately" at the same time, as the rule says.

Secondly, the touching of the shot by A3 does impact the try if he is inside the 3-point line and/or intentional.

dw3018:

QUESTION 1:

Play 2) A1 is fouled by B1 while in the act of shooting (the ball is still in A1's hands).

Play 3) After A1 has released the ball and while still an airborne shooter, A1 is fouled by B2.

NFHS R4-S19-A11: A mutliple foul is a situation in which two or more teammates commit personal fouls against the same oppoonent at approximately the same time.

NFHS R4-S19-A12: A false multiple foul is a situation in which there are two or more fouls by the same team and the last foul is committed before the clock is started following the first, and at least one of the atributes of a multiple foul is absent.

B1 and B2 personal fouls against A1 are a false multiple foul is because the fouls were not approximately at the same time. B1's foul against A1 occured while A1 still had the ball in his hands, and B2's foul against A1 occured after the ball had left A1's hand. That is a clear indication that the fouls did not occur approximately at the same time.


QUESTION 2:

Play 5) While A1's try is still on its way up, the ball is touched by A3.

NFHS R4-S41-A4: The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.

NFHS Casebook Play 4.41.4 SITUATION A: While the ball is in flight on a try for goal by A1: (a) B1 touches the ball and then time expires; or (b) time expires and then B1 touches the ball. The ball continues in flight and enters Team A's basket. RULING: The goal is scored in both (a) and (b), as B1's touching did not cause the try to end. However if B1's toucing is either goaltending or basketball intereference, the ball becomes dead and two points will be awarded. (See NFHS R6-S7, Exception a, and NFHS R9-S11 & S12.)

Also see Casebook Play SITUATION 5.2.1 C (c).

Per rule it does not matter who touches the ball during the try, the ball remains live as long as the touching is neither basketball interference nor goal tending. And if the try was taken from behind the three point arc and the ball still goes through the basket, then three points are scored.

MTD, Sr.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Per rule it does not matter who touches the ball during the try, the ball remains live as long as the touching is neither basketball interference nor goal tending. And if the try was taken from behind the three point arc and the ball still goes through the basket, then three points are scored.

MTD, Sr.

Mark - what about 5-2-1?

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Mark - what about 5-2-1?

That would be 2.

Oh - you were asking the "other" Mark and wanted a real answer. Sorry.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I have edited my original post as of 12:29pmEST today. I had to correct Rulings (6) and (8) as well as Penalties (6) and (8).

When I made my original post I was very tired from carrying 'The Preacher' all night in a girls' H.S. jr. varsity game (six minute quarters). The longest 24 minutes of my life.

Also it was the most boring game that Daryl and I had had in a very long time. While the game was a blow out. There were no crazy plays that required Daryl to bail me out. And the players, coaches, and fans from both schools were wonderful. These type of games are getting far and few between.

MTD, Sr.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

M&M and Mark:

I stand corrected concerning the scoring of the goal. I will re-edit my post immediately. Please see my post immediatly above this one.

MTD, Sr.

3 corrections in one day?!?

It must've been a heck've mind-numbing game...

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Play 5) While A1's try is still on its way up, the ball is touched by A3.
MTD, Sr.

Not quite.

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

To answer an earlier question, the ball was touched on its downward arch.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

Not quite.

JimGolf:

I feel your pain. But when I made my first post in this thread I did not know (because I had not read the entire thread) that Mark had given more information in a post on Mon., Nov 26, 2007, 03:06pmEST. Mark never edited his original post (the one that started this mess) and I never read his post of Mon., Nov 26, 2007, 03:06pmEST, until I read your post just now. It is obvious that Mark has been off his medications for quite some time or he would have never concocted just a goofy situation, actually I am quite jealous, I wish I had thought of this Play.

I made my original Ruling based upon the information in Mark's original Play, which never completely described where the ball was when it was touched by A3. A fundamental of reading NFHS Casebook Plays and NCAA Approved Rulings is to read nothing into the play, and that is how I read the play. The Play did not state that A3 had touched the ball while on the downward portion of its arc toward the basket, therefore the correct assumption is that A3's touching was not goaltending. Having said and knowing the type of posts that I am capable of writing, you have to ask yourself: "Do I really want MTD, Sr. to answer my question?" And your answer can be none other than: "Of course I do."

But, I have a number of errands this afternoon before I leave for my girls' H.S. game this evening so you will have to wait until tomorrow for me to address your question which is a good question because it does changes a number of Rulings after it.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Camron and jdw3018:

I have just completed a post (see the last paragraph), but I will address your concerns tomorrow.

Have a great day.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Camron and jdw3018:

I have just completed a post (see the last paragraph), but I will address your concerns tomorrow.

Have a great day.

MTD, Sr.

Well, next day turned into nine days. Lets review (please bear with me):


From my Post #37:

SITUATION:

Play 1) A1 attempts a 3 pt. FG.

Play 2) A1 is fouled by B1 while in the act of shooting (the ball is still in A1's hands).

Play 3) After A1 has released the ball and while still an airborne shooter, A1 is fouled by B2.

RULING:

Rulings 1, 2, and 3) The fouls by B1 and B2 constitute a false multiple foul. Each foul in a false multiple foul carries it own penalty. See Ruling (6): A1's 3 pt. attempt is successful. Score three points for A1 (See Ruling (6).) and Team A and A1 will be awarded one free throw for B1's foul and one free throw for B2's foul. B1 and B2's fouls are personal fouls and are counted toward their five PF and TF's for disqualification and is counted toward Team B's seven and ten team fouls for the half.


From my Post #51:

1) The fact that A1's field goal attempt was successful makes it easy for the official to determine how many free throws are to be awarded to A1. A1 will be awarded only one free throw for each foul by B1 and B2, therefore A1 will be awarded two free throws whether B1 and B2’s fouls are ruled a multiple foul or a false multiple foul.

2) If A1's field goal had not been successful, then the game officials have a wonderful problem in determining how many free throws to award to A1. Let’s look at this situation as if one were answering a test question.

NFHS R5-S2-A1 and NFHS Casebook Play 5.2.1 SITUATION C (c) and (d) are the pertinent rules references. While this rules and casebook play refer to situations where the field goal attempt was successful, they tell us how to determine the number of free throws to be awarded to A1’s field goal attempt was unsuccessful.

2a) Let’s first look at how Casebook Play 5.2.1 SITUATION C (c) applies to our situation.

B1 and B2’s fouls are ruled a multiple foul:

A1 will be awarded two free throw for each foul by B1 and B2, therefore A1 will be awarded four free throws.

B1 and B2’s fouls are ruled a false multiple foul:

A1 will be awarded three free throw for each foul by B1 and B2, therefore A1 will be awarded six free throws.

2b) Now let’s look at how Casebook Play 5.2.1 SITUATION C (d) applies to our situation.

B1 and B2’s fouls are ruled a multiple foul:

A1 will be awarded one free throw for each foul by B1 and B2, therefore A1 will be awarded two free throws.

B1 and B2’s fouls are ruled a false multiple foul:

A1 will be awarded two free throw for each foul by B1 and B2, therefore A1 will be awarded four free throws.


Then JimGolf made Post #52 and threw a monkey wrench into my brilliant analyse for the situation up until point:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post #37):
Play 5) While A1's try is still on its way up, the ball is touched by A3.
MTD, Sr.

Not quite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett (Post #18):
To answer an earlier question, the ball was touched on its downward arch.


When I made my interpretation regarding the false multiple foul (see my Post #37) I did so because of my superior knowledge of the rules and my superior ability to interprete the rules. (Now everybody knows why I have brown eyes, I am full of horse manure, , but I digress.)

This morning during the Wood Co. Bkb. Off. Assn. RULES/MECHANICS meeting I was bored from listening to The Preacher (Daryl Long, ) so I decided to read the 2007-08 NFHS Casebook for 2007-08 and guess what I found on page 31 of said book:

NFHS Casebook Play 4.19.12 SITUATION: B1 fouls airborne A1 who is in the act of shooting. Before airborne shooter A1 returns one foot to the floor, he/she is fouled by B2 who has moved into A1's landing area. The ball: (a) does; or (b) does not, enter the basket. RULING: This is a false multiple foul and each foul carries its own penalty. In (a), the goal is counted and A1 is awarded one free throw for each foul. In (b), A1 is awarded two free throws for each foul. R10-S6, Penalty 6 and 7. (My note: I do not know why Penalty 6 is referenced; it should be Penalty 2 and 5.)

So the correct Ruling is a false multiple foul with A1 shooting either four or six free throws.

MTD, Sr.