T or let it ride?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

I had a T today that I'd like some feedback on....didn't really want to call it cause I'd not had much issue with the coach but but I felt the he put me in a bad position and basically challenged me....

First half team fouls were 9-4.....Early in the second half with team fouls 2-2.... ...Coach of team that had 9 in the first is barking about a no call I had at the other end on a rebound by his C.......As I set up at T to put the ball in, in front of his bench due to a tipped pass OOB... he asks me "Are you going to call any fouls on them today?"...Looking up at the scoreboard and seeing it's 2-2..I pointed to it...His response was "What does that mean?"...I said "Coach, it means we've been calling fouls on both ends of the floor....sit down and coach your team from the bench the rest of the game.

His response was "I'm NOT sitting down unless you T me up"

In 7 years, I don't think I've ever had a coach say that to me....They've certainly earned Ts from me...It's kind of along the lines of threating a coach with a T which I would never do but that's how I felt when he said it...Almost as if to see if I was willing to exercise my option to T....

SO what do you think...

I think that you made two mistakes.
1. You should never officiate according to the scoreboard. Fouls, violations, or otherwise. Your pointing to the scoreboard was wrong. If the coach had pointed to the scoreboard in the first half when the fouls were 4-9 against him as evidence that you were calling more on one end, would you have been happy or felt that his action was appropriate? Your attempted use of the board as evidence wasn't either.

2. The coach was absolutely correct that you have no right to instruct him to sit down if he is in a state that utilizes the coaching box (other than Kansas ). His response to you was completely right and you should have simply said, "You're right, coach. I apologize," and then quickly inbounded the ball. The coach's complaining about the noncall on the other end wasn't good, but you certainly didn't manage the situation well. This should never have escalated to a T. JMO.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

First half team fouls were 9-4.....Early in the second half with team fouls 2-2.... ...Coach of team that had 9 in the first is barking about a no call I had at the other end on a rebound by his C.......As I set up at T to put the ball in, in front of his bench due to a tipped pass OOB... he asks me "Are you going to call any fouls on them today?"...Looking up at the scoreboard and seeing it's 2-2..I pointed to it...His response was "What does that mean?"...I said "Coach, it means we've been calling fouls on both ends of the floor....sit down and coach your team from the bench the rest of the game.

His response was "I'm NOT sitting down unless you T me up"



SO what do you think...

I think that you should have issued a warning on his first comment highlighted above. That warning is two words--"That's enough." He questioned your integrity by intimating that you're favoring the other team. If he comments further, simply give him the technical foul.

Just way too much talking on your part.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Like what? I suppose it depends on the tone of voice. I've worked hard at keeping the sarcasm out. It's worked for me. Worked very well. *shrug*

Doesn't matter how you say it.

The context of the situation doesn't call for a thank you so...

They either think you are nuts or they think you are being a smart arse.

Either way it isn't the best way to handle a problem coach, IMO.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Like what? I suppose it depends on the tone of voice. I've worked hard at keeping the sarcasm out. It's worked for me. Worked very well. *shrug*

I'm with BZ on this one. You will eventually run into a coach that misconstrues your intent and thinks that you're just being a smart-azz. Jmo, but a simple nod of the head to acknowledge that you heard the coach is sufficient. The coach is just trying to work you anyway.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Doesn't matter how you say it.

The context of the situation doesn't call for a thank you so...

They either think you are nuts or they think you are being a smart arse.

Either way it isn't the best way to handle a problem coach, IMO.

Thank you.

[tomegun]

1. The coach asked a question that many coaches will ask. Everything went down hill when you pointed to the scoreboard.
2. You shouldn't have told the coach to sit down period.
3. A coach is smart enough to realize that "Thank you" isn't an answer for everything he/she is asking/saying and will eventually think the official is being a jerk.
4. When a coach is upset there is almost nothing an official can say that will be good enough. Keep is short, to the point and move on.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by tomegun

3. A coach is smart enough to realize that "Thank you" isn't an answer for everything he/she is asking/saying and will eventually think the official is being a jerk.

Whatever...

[tomegun]

I like the fact that others basically told you the same thing, but didn't get the same response.
It is what it is and you really can't say for certain that your method will work all the time. It doesn't read well either and comes off like the official would be a smart...

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by tomegun

you really can't say for certain that your method will work all the time.

I didn't say for certain that my "method" would "work" all the time. I said that it's a tool to use sometimes under certain circumstances. I don't understand why that's such a problem.

I can see JR's point that there might be a coach sometime that would misconstrue what I'm trying to convey. But that hasn't happend to me yet. It's been just the right "response" to certain coach comments at certain times, and has helped the game move forward with the coach coaching and the refs reffing.

Why would I not recommend that tool for someone else to have in the kit?

[zakman2005000]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

I didn't say for certain that my "method" would "work" all the time. I said that it's a tool to use sometimes under certain circumstances. I don't understand why that's such a problem.

I can see JR's point that there might be a coach sometime that would misconstrue what I'm trying to convey. But that hasn't happend to me yet. It's been just the right "response" to certain coach comments at certain times, and has helped the game move forward with the coach coaching and the refs reffing.

Why would I not recommend that tool for someone else to have in the kit?

Because, most likely at some point, a coach may misinterpret the meaning and it may lead to bigger problems. Just because "tools" work some of the time doesn't mean they necessarily need to be in the kit.

[Ignats75]

Personally, I think you baited the coach into getting a T. If he has the right to stand, you cannot give him the seatbelt without the T. Just my HO.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

I didn't say for certain that my "method" would "work" all the time. I said that it's a tool to use sometimes under certain circumstances. I don't understand why that's such a problem.

I can see JR's point that there might be a coach sometime that would misconstrue what I'm trying to convey. But that hasn't happend to me yet. It's been just the right "response" to certain coach comments at certain times, and has helped the game move forward with the coach coaching and the refs reffing.

Why would I not recommend that tool for someone else to have in the kit?

And why would you get defensive when others point out the potential flaw of it and recommend not adding it?

Simply put it's confusing. Now that may distract the coach by having them thinking...what did she say?...and that may have worked to your advantage, but the likelihood of it making a situation worse is there.

Why use something out of place and simple, when a direct and appropriate nod and, "I heard you," "I'll watch for it," or a, "That's enough," is just as simple and lacks any possible confusion?

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

And why would you get defensive when others point out the potential flaw of it and recommend not adding it?

Why would I get defensive when I get jumped on for something that I never said? Can't imagine...

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Simply put it's confusing. Now that may distract the coach by having them thinking...what did she say?...and that may have worked to your advantage, but the likelihood of it making a situation worse there.

Yes, there is the likelihood of making the situation worse. There is always that likelihood. "I heard you" and "I'll watch for it" and "That's enough" also have that likelihood.

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Why use something out of place and simple, when a direct and appropriate nod and, "I heard you," "I'll watch for it," or a, "That's enough," is just as simple and lacks any possible confusion?

In human communication, nothing lacks any possible confusion. THere's always a possibility of confusion. Sort of like how you didn't hear what I was saying about "Thank you" and I don't like being called crazy.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

Playing under IHSAA and NFHS rules, so technically, he should only be up to instruct/coach his players...Which for the most part he was doing, that's why I said in my OP that I didn't really want to go this route....we were not having much issues but there were some calls both sides were questioning and wanting to give me their understanding of the play/rule....

Was this played in Kansas?
This is not NFHS rule, and I've not heard that it's the Indiana rule either.

[Nevadaref]

An amusing story about "Thank you, coach."

I soccer ref buddy of mine is from England. The mentality over there regarding what is acceptable dissent is vastly different from the US. They really tolerate much more than we do. His normal response is simply, "Thank you, coach." He actually says that over and over and over. I would estimate that he says it in response to about 95% of the complaints from coaches or players.

Usually the person complaining realizes that he isn't going to get anything else out of him and so just stops complaining, but a couple of years ago one coach actually asked him, "Why do you keep saying that? I want a real answer!" His response was absolutely unbelievable!!!
He turned around and without missing a beat actually said, "Because they won't let me say, 'Shut the *#(& up, coach.' "