Old Man need Mechanics Refresher

[jkumpire]

Hi guys,

I was not officiating last year when the new FED team control signal was put in, and I am not sure if I understand it correctly.

1. It is used when the driver passes off, or releases a shot then commits an offensive foul (but obviously it is not an offensive foul because he has already released the pass or shot).

2. It is not used very much.

3. It is not the same as the NBA "loose-ball foul" mechanic.

If I understand it correctly, can someone explain why FED decided to use this signal? It is not logical.

If someone can find a discussion of this mechanic, and its use from FED last year, drop me a url, will you please?

Thanks!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Hi guys,

I was not officiating last year when the new FED team control signal was put in, and I am not sure if I understand it correctly.

1. It is used when the driver passes off, or releases a shot then commits an offensive foul (but obviously it is not an offensive foul because he has already released the pass or shot).

I can only assume that you are talking about the Team Control foul signal. First of all there is no such thing as an "offensive foul." Maybe the reason you do not understand the signal is because you do not understand there has been a rule change. Now all fouls with a team under control of the ball, you do not shoot FTs when in bonus situations. This is the purpose of the signal to clarify that you called a foul that you can never shoot FTs for. The same reason we use the PC foul signal to clarify the very same issue.

Originally Posted by jkumpire

2. It is not used very much.

I used it 3 times last night alone. Two illegal screen calls and a player in the post holding off the defender to keep position. I used it the night before a couple of times for similar reasons.

Originally Posted by jkumpire

3. It is not the same as the NBA "loose-ball foul" mechanic.

It is not the NBA, so of course it is not the same.

Originally Posted by jkumpire

If I understand it correctly, can someone explain why FED decided to use this signal? It is not logical.

I just answered this question a few lines earlier.

Peace

[BEAREF]

It is used when a foul is committed by a member of the team that is on offense..

[M&M Guy]

Think of it in these terms - remember when we used to not shoot bonus FT's if there was a player-control foul? The Fed. just expanded that to also include fouls by all members of the team in control. The signal (the "punch") is used to let people know we have a team-control foul, so if the other team is in the bonus, we will not be shooting FT's.

Times you will most likely see it - the "pass and crash", and illegal screens set by the offense.

Times it will not occur - rebounding fouls before a player gains control, and fouls during a throw-in. In both of these cases, there is no team-control.

[jkumpire]

A few quick thoughts:

1 Offensive Foul= Player Control Foul, the nomenclature has changed but the principle is the same. I also thank you for the reminder about not shooting FT's on "team control" fouls by A when A is on offense. I was aware of that change.
2. Thanks for the other uses for the call, I just have not seen it used in the scrimmages I had, but that may well be because we were concentrating on other mechanics in the preseason.
3. As to the logic question, I still don't see the need for it. Call the foul, point the other way, point to the throw-in spot. If your communication is good on the foul call, the extra signal is not needed. Just my .02.

Thanks again!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

2. Thanks for the other uses for the call, I just have not seen it used in the scrimmages I had, but that may well be because we were concentrating on other mechanics in the preseason.

You are just one person and I am just one person, but I have seen the single used several times in just in less than a week with the one scrimmage I attended on Friday and the games I was in or watched from the stands.

Originally Posted by jkumpire

3. As to the logic question, I still don't see the need for it. Call the foul, point the other way, point to the throw-in spot. If your communication is good on the foul call, the extra signal is not needed. Just my .02.

Then you have a coach complaining (or sometimes worse a scorekeeper holding up the game because they do not understand what was called) "why are we not shooting FTs?" Since the rule came from the NCAA level, the mechanic soon followed.

Mechanics are used to communicate things without us saying a word. This mechanic does not mean you stop telling everyone where the ball is, but it certainly eliminates the things we have to say after we call a foul. I use it and I love the signal as compared to the time when we did not have the signal the year the rule was implemented. The signal was very much needed and many people here complained we did not have a signal to tell everyone what kind of foul we were calling.

Peace

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

3. As to the logic question, I still don't see the need for it. Call the foul, point the other way, point to the throw-in spot. If your communication is good on the foul call, the extra signal is not needed. Just my .02.

I had a couple team control fouls in my DH yesterday. They did their job, they got the team under control

When the team control foul was instituted two seasons ago, there was no new signal added. We were asked to do as you suggest. But, sure enough, scorekeepers were all over the horn trying to alert us that we we're in the bonus. So the following year they introduced the signal. From there, things got better.

In the end, "if your communication is good" has very little to do with what you understand and a whole lot to do with what the person on the other end understands. Which sadly is not often very much.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Hi guys,

I was not officiating last year when the new FED team control signal was put in, and I am not sure if I understand it correctly.

1. It is used when the driver passes off, or releases a shot then commits an offensive foul (but obviously it is not an offensive foul because he has already released the pass or shot).

2. It is not used very much.

3. It is not the same as the NBA "loose-ball foul" mechanic.

If I understand it correctly, can someone explain why FED decided to use this signal? It is not logical.

If someone can find a discussion of this mechanic, and its use from FED last year, drop me a url, will you please?

Thanks!

Here is the thread in which we first started discussing the new mechanic last year: Team Control Signal?

The rule itself came into the NFHS game two seasons ago. Here is the Comment on that rule change from 2005-06:
THROW-IN AWARDED TO OPPONENT FOR ALL TEAM-CONTROL FOULS (7-5-5, 4-19-7): A new definition for a team-control foul has been established, and the penalty has been changed to a throw-in in all cases. The ball will be awarded to the offended team at a spot nearest to where the foul occurred. Bonus free throws will no longer be awarded. The change makes enforcement of the rule easier for officials. Under the previous rule it was sometimes difficult to determine whether: (a) a player in control had released the ball on a pass or interrupted dribble before the player charges; and (b) a player had received a pass before the player charges. The change makes the penalty consistent for a player-control foul and a team-control foul. In addition, the change reduces delays in the game. The rule only applies when a foul occurs by the team in control. By rule, there is no team control during a throw-in, jump ball or when the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

1. It is used when the driver passes off, or releases a shot then commits an offensive foul (but obviously it is not an offensive foul because he has already released the pass or shot).

JK, just noticed one thing here (beyond "it's an offensive foul...it's not an offensive foul"). If the shooter goes airborne for a shot, releases the ball, and then lands on the defender in LGP, I have a PC foul (charge), not a personal foul. As you know, the shooter's in the act of shooting till he lands.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I have a PC foul (charge), not a personal foul.

You might want to reword that. A PC foul is a personal foul.