When does the try really end?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Coach is shouting "Hands Up!!" Player instinctively puts hands up, even though it's the wrong coach.

Player is swinging arms up into the air in attempt to screen defender.

Player is jumping up to wave at mommy in the second row, who can't see him over the bodies.

All these players are facing away from the shooter, btw. Didn't see ball coming. I say inadvertent.

In all of these cases it is obvious the original shot would have been no good. How do I know this? Because the deflection redirected it and caused it to go in.

No shot.

That said...how is it legal for a player to swing "...arms up into the air in attempt to screen defender." Is said defender sitting in a helicopter?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ranjo

So if I understand your reasoning, if the orginal shot rebounded off a teammates head or shoulder and entered the basket, the try has ended and the goal would not count?

That's what case book play 6.7.6SitA is telling us. If it doesn't rebound from an offensive player's hand or hands, it can't be a try or tap. And if the whistle has blown, rule 6-7EXCEPTION(a) doesn't apply and the ball is dead as per rules 6-7-5&7. Can't score with a dead ball.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

In all of these cases it is obvious the original shot would have been no good. How do I know this? Because the deflection redirected it and caused it to go in.

No shot.

I wasn't disagreeing with that point. Just answering the question, "Why would anyone have their arms up in the air except to deflect the shot? How could the tip be inadvertent?

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

That said...how is it legal for a player to swing "...arms up into the air in attempt to screen defender." Is said defender sitting in a helicopter?

Screener isn't very skilled? No contact made? I see a lot of this at the lower levels.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Oh my. That was rather sexist on my part wasn't it? I'll hurry back and fix it.

I don't know about sexist. Just trying to clarify which uh, quack, we were trying to match.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

I wasn't disagreeing with that point. Just answering the question, "Why would anyone have their arms up in the air except to deflect the shot? How could the tip be inadvertent?

Screener isn't very skilled? No contact made? I see a lot of this at the lower levels.

Coach isn't very skilled either... I know i know...the coaches are glorified babysitters at this level...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Just trying to clarify which uh, quack, we were trying to match.

Um, no, gonna leave that one alone. I can think of several responses, but every damn one of 'em is guaranteed to get me into the doo-doo again with either you or the mods.

For once in my life, restraint, JR, restraint.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Um, no, gonna leave that one alone. I can think of several responses, but every damn one of 'em is guaranteed to get me into the doo-doo again with either you or the mods.

For once in my life, restraint, JR, restraint.

Thanks.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

In all of these cases it is obvious the original shot would have been no good. How do I know this? Because the deflection redirected it and caused it to go in.

No shot.

That's just plain not true. If what you wrote were correct, then any try touched by a defensive player would also have to be ruled no good. The touch by the defense is also going to redirect the ball. So your logic fails in this one.

Here is another example:
The original try could have been directed at the backboard with the intent to bank it in. However, once it was deflected by another player (offense or defense), it could fall short or its intented target and go directly into the basket.

That's a good goal.

===============
For the original play, by rule, if the ball was legally touched and the touching was not a controlled tap, which would constitute a different try for goal, then the goal should count. There is discretion required in this call. However, the mere fact that another player (offense or defense) contacted the try does not automatically end the try and disallow the basket.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That's just plain not true. If what you wrote were correct, then any try touched by a defensive player would also have to be ruled no good. The touch by the defense is also going to redirect the ball. So your logic fails in this one.

That's just plain not true. Obviously you're failing to understand what Dan is saying. A touch by the defense re-directing the shot does not end the original try until it is certain that the original try has no chance of going through the basket. However, a touch by an offensive teammate with the purpose of re-directing the ball at the basket means the end of the original try and the start of a second try. Rules 4-41-4,5,6&7.

If another offensive player tapped the ball and it went in, common sense tells you that this last tap WAS actually a tap under R4-41. Whyinthehell otherwise would that player be up in the air altering his teammates shot? Do you really think he was trying to block his teammate's shot?

Your logic sucks in this one.

[Nevadaref]

Nope, that's not what Dan wrote.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Nope, that's not what Dan wrote.

That is what I wrote regardless of what you think.

[Nevadaref]

Then it must have been in some kind of old-guy secret code because that's not what the words say.

[Camron Rust]

A case that may shed some light on this situation is the one regarding where A2 is located vs. the location of A1....

A1 behind the 3 point arc. A1 releases a try. A2, who is inside the arc, touches the ball while it is on the way up. Ball goes in...score 2 points.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

A case that may shed some light on this situation is the one regarding where A2 is located vs. the location of A1....

A1 behind the 3 point arc. A1 releases a try. A2, who is inside the arc, touches the ball while it is on the way up. Ball goes in...score 2 points.

You raise an interesting issue. Let me complicate it.
A1 releases a try from behind the 3pt arc. The period ending horn sounds. A2, who is inside the arc, legally touches the ball on the way up. The ball goes in. Do you score the points?

The only reason you wouldn't is if you believe that the try ended before entering the basket. However, "when a teammate touches the ball" is not one of the four ways listed in 4-41-4 as how a try ends.


I think that all that your scenario depicts is a try that does not meet all the requirements of a three point goal. Most people don't realize that the shooter being completely behind the line is not the only requirement.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

However, a touch by an offensive teammate with the purpose of re-directing the ball at the basket means the end of the original try and the start of a second try.

And what if the touching by the teammate is not done intentionally or with the purpose of redirecting the ball towards the basket?

Two cases:
1. A2 sets a screen on B1 to free his teammate, A1, for an open shot. A1 begins the habitual throwing motion of his try for goal. B1 pushes through A2's screen in an attempt to reach A1. The officials deems this a foul and sounds the whistle. A1 completes his throwing motion and releases a try for goal. A2, who was pushed off balance by B1, falls backwards towards A1 with his arms flying upwards into the air. The ball deflects off one of A2's hands and continues on its way to the basket and enters the goal.

2. Teammates A1 and A2 are battling for the league scoring title. Whoever scores more points in the final game of the season will capture the crown. A1 has scored one fewer point than his teammate with only seconds remaining in the game. Just prior to the final horn A1 releases a try for goal. A2 leaps from nearby and purposely trys to block the shot. Despite his best effort to prevent the ball from entering the goal, A2 only succeeds in slightly tipping the ball on its upward flight. This redirects the ball high into the air as the horn sounds, but when the ball descends it still passes through the basket.