When does the try really end?

[ranjo]

This happened during a varsity boys scrimmage this week. A1 drives the lane and is fouled in the act of shooting. After the ball leaves A1's hand, it is tipped (unintentionally) by A2 who is jumping in anticipation of a rebound. the ball deflects off A2's hand and into the basket. (I'm not sure if the ball was above or below the rim at this point)

I was in lead, called a blocking foul, stayed with the action on the floor, and did not see the ball enter the basket. I reported the foul and awarded two free throws. My partner administered the first free throw which was successfull and the players started preparing for a throw-in. My partner says "one more shot" and we realize there is a problem. Partner said the goal should be disallowed due to the ball being dead after the orginal shot since it was tipped before it went in the basket.

Rule book says the ball is live until the try or tap ends. The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor, or when the ball becomes dead.

At this point I have confused myself and have not come to a rules supported conclusion. When does the ball become dead in this particular situation? If the ball was tipped by the opposing team, would the answer to the question be the same?

I have confidence at least one of you can put it in simple terms for me.

[SoInZebra]

The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor, or when the ball becomes dead.

ranjo-

Prior to A2 tipping the ball:

1. Was the throw successful?
2. Was it certain that it would be unsuccessful?
3. Did it touch the floor?
4. Did it become dead?

I've got "no" to all 4 questions. Live ball - score the basket - shoot 1 - throw in to Team B anywhere on the endline after good free throw.

[jdw3018]

I believe partner was right. The ball became dead when it touched A2. I'll look for rules reference...

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by ranjo

My partner said the goal should be disallowed due to the ball being dead after the orginal shot since it was tipped before it went in the basket.

And I thought I over-thought things!!

Originally Posted by ranjo

The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor, or when the ball becomes dead.

Did any of these things happen? Let's see. Out of order, the ball didn't touch the floor, it was never certain that the throw was unsuccessful. Those are the easy ones. Did the ball become dead? Well, the foul didn't make it dead, and the tip didn't make it dead, so I say no, it didn't. And the throw was successful. I say the try ended when the throw was successful.

[bob jenkins]

Clearly if B touched the ball, the try does not end and we'd count the basket and shoot one FT. See 4.41.4A and 5.6.2A

I don't see any cases involving A touching the ball. I think you need to decide whether the touch was a tap. If so, that ends the try (and starts another). If not, the try doesn't end.

[jdw3018]

I'm gonna take back what I said. Rule 6-7 Note: If A1's try or tap is legally touched in flight, the goal counts if made, if the horn sounds before or after the legal touching.

If I'm reading it correctly, as stated earlier, it all depends on whether A2's touching is ruled a tap. If it's a tap, no goal. If not, and just legal, incidental touching, then score the goal.

I said no goal earlier as that was an inerpretation in a rules study meeting earlier this year I attended, but I'm currently finding no ruling to back that up...

[ranjo]

Thanks for all of your replies and rules references. Rainmaker had it right in that that I had just "overthought" the whole thing.

The only remaining question is: If the ball was below the rim when it was inadvertently tapped; would that signify to you the original try was unsuccesfull?

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by ranjo

Thanks for all of your replies and rules references. Rainmaker had it right in that that I had just "overthought" the whole thing.

Actually, I thought your partner had overthought the thing, not you.

Originally Posted by ranjo

The only remaining question is: If the ball was below the rim when it was inadvertently tapped; would that signify to you the original try was unsuccesfull?

If one of the refs saw clearly that it was below the rim, and the tip was the only thing that caused it to go in, then yea, I'd say your partner was right. But unless someone was certain, I'd give the shooter the benefit of the doubt.

Had the table scored the basket? Was there any comment from them about one FT or two?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by ranjo

Thanks for all of your replies and rules references. Rainmaker had it right in that that I had just "overthought" the whole thing.

The only remaining question is: If the ball was below the rim when it was inadvertently tapped; would that signify to you the original try was unsuccesfull?

Important clarification - where was the ball in flight? Was it on its way up or down?

If it was coming down, it was one of two things - either clearly unsuccessful, or it was goaltending. The outcome would be the same in either of these - no basket awarded and A1 gets two throws.

If the ball was on the way up and inadvertently contacted A2, regardless of where it was (below or above rim level), it seems you would count the bucket.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

If the ball was on the way up and inadvertently contacted A2, regardless of where it was (below or above rim level), it seems you would count the bucket.

Personally, I would have a hard time ruling that the ball inadvertently touched a hand(s) of a shooter's teammate. The rules definition of a try or tap states that ball must touch a hand or hands. And if it touches any other body part of the shooter's teammate, the try is over, as per case book play 6.7.6SitA. There's no reason that I can think of for a shooter's teammate to get his hand(s) in the air in front of the shot unless it's an attempt to re-direct that shot. And re-directing the shot ends the initial "try".

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a beaver.....

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Personally, I would have a hard time ruling that the ball inadvertently touched a hand(s) of a shooter's teammate. The rules definition of a try or tap states that ball must touch a hand or hands. And if it touches any other body part of the shooter's teammate, the try is over, as per case book play 6.7.6SitA. There's no reason that I can think of for a shooter's teammate to get his hand(s) in the air in front of the shot unless it's an attempt to re-direct that shot. And re-directing the shot ends the initial "try".

If t looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a dick.....

Hard to disagree with that.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

There's no reason that I can think of for a shooter's teammate to get his hand(s) in the air in front of the shot unless it's an attempt to re-direct that shot.

Coach is shouting "Hands Up!!" Player instinctively puts hands up, even though it's the wrong coach.

Player is swinging arms up into the air in attempt to screen defender.

Player is jumping up to wave at mommy in the second row, who can't see him over the bodies.

All these players are facing away from the shooter, btw. Didn't see ball coming. I say inadvertent.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

quacks like a dick.....

Nixon?

[ranjo]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Personally, I would have a hard time ruling that the ball inadvertently touched a hand(s) of a shooter's teammate. The rules definition of a try or tap states that ball must touch a hand or hands. And if it touches any other body part of the shooter's teammate, the try is over, as per case book play 6.7.6SitA. There's no reason that I can think of for a shooter's teammate to get his hand(s) in the air in front of the shot unless it's an attempt to re-direct that shot. And re-directing the shot ends the initial "try".

If t looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a dick.....

So if I understand your reasoning, if the orginal shot rebounded off a teammates head or shoulder and entered the basket, the try has ended and the goal would not count?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Nixon?

Oh my. That was rather sexist on my part wasn't it? I'll hurry back and fix it.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by ranjo

So if I understand your reasoning, if the orginal shot rebounded off a teammates head or shoulder and entered the basket, the try has ended and the goal would not count?

Absolutely no question about that, as to "rebound" of a head or shoulder the original try would have to be clearly unsuccessful.