Defensive rebound - elbows

[rfp]

Where do you draw the line between offensive and defensive responsibility for contact when a player grabs a defensive rebound and, with the ball, pivots or moves his elbows while holding the ball and his elbow comes into contact with a player from the opposing team?

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by rfp

Where do you draw the line between offensive and defensive responsibility for contact when a player grabs a defensive rebound and, with the ball, pivots or moves his elbows while holding the ball and his elbow comes into contact with a player from the opposing team?

That's a foul. Why would you ask.

[Splute]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

That's a foul. Why would you ask.

Not necessarily a foul. Rule 9-13-3 (06-07) Art. 3... Action of arm(s) and elbow(s) resulting from total body movements as in pivoting or movement of the ball incidental to feinting with it, releasing it, or moving it to prevent a held ball or loss of control shall not be considered excessive.

I am not certain from your description if the player is simply pivoting his body and contact occurs or if he is pivoting and swinging his elbows excessively??

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by rfp

Where do you draw the line between offensive and defensive responsibility for contact when a player grabs a defensive rebound and, with the ball, pivots or moves his elbows while holding the ball and his elbow comes into contact with a player from the opposing team?

Who violated the "circle of verticality" and was the contact incidental?

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by Splute

Not necessarily a foul. Rule 9-13-3 (06-07) Art. 3... Action of arm(s) and elbow(s) resulting from total body movements as in pivoting or movement of the ball incidental to feinting with it, releasing it, or moving it to prevent a held ball or loss of control shall not be considered excessive.

I am not certain from your description if the player is simply pivoting his body and contact occurs or if he is pivoting and swinging his elbows excessively??

As per original post CONTACT occurs. Maybe I'm reading too much in it but if a player is swinging his elbows and contact occurs I have a foul. Excessive swinging no one hit but players close (within a few feet) no contact I have a violation. Clean it up early so no problems latter.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Splute

Not necessarily a foul. Rule 9-13-3 (06-07) Art. 3... Action of arm(s) and elbow(s) resulting from total body movements as in pivoting or movement of the ball incidental to feinting with it, releasing it, or moving it to prevent a held ball or loss of control shall not be considered excessive.

I am not certain from your description if the player is simply pivoting his body and contact occurs or if he is pivoting and swinging his elbows excessively??

9-13-3 deals with a violation, not a foul. Contact with an elbow need not result from excessive movement to be a foul.

[Splute]

Originally Posted by just another ref

9-13-3 deals with a violation, not a foul. Contact with an elbow need not result from excessive movement to be a foul.

And contact itself does not dictate a foul. The player can be pivoting as allowed by rule and the contact may be incidental or caused by the opposing team.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Splute

And contact itself does not dictate a foul. The player can be pivoting as allowed by rule and the contact may be incidental or caused by the opposing team.

Right. That's the point I was trying to make. Contact must be judged on a case by case basis. Rule 9-anything has nothing to do with any foul call. As for the word excessive, excessive contact can result in a foul call. But very subtle contact can also result in a foul call.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Splute

And contact itself does not dictate a foul. The player can be pivoting as allowed by rule and the contact may be incidental or caused by the opposing team.

Splute:

You are correct that NFHS and NCAA R9-S13-A2 and A3 deal with actions that are not violations. BUT, if A1 has the ball and B1 has a legal guarding position with respect to A1, and A1 makes contact with B1 while making movements under R9-S13-A2 and A3, then A1 has committed a personal foul and the official now has to determine whether the foul is a common (player control) foul, an intentional foul, or a flagrant foul.

Therefore, R9-S13-A2 and A3 still does not protect A1 from being responsible for any contact made with B1 who has a legal guarding position relative to A1.

MTD, Sr.

[tomegun]

MTD brings up a good point. Has anyone ever called or seen an intentional PC?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by tomegun

MTD brings up a good point. Has anyone ever called or seen an intentional PC?

No, because a PC is a common foul. It can't be intentional.

[Adam]

I have called an intentional foul on a dribbler, though.

[rfp]

Originally Posted by Splute

Rule 9-13-3 (06-07) Art. 3... Action of arm(s) and elbow(s) resulting from total body movements as in pivoting or movement of the ball incidental to feinting with it, releasing it, or moving it to prevent a held ball or loss of control shall not be considered excessive.

The rule you quote is exactly what I find challenging to determine who is responsible for the contact. The play I'm envisioning is A1 grabs a rebound after B1's missed shot. B2 immediately converges on A1 and tries to steal the ball or contest the outlet pass. A1 in trying to prevent a held ball elbows B2 and the contact is not incidental. Who is mostly responsible for this contact? The rule quoted above points to B2, but if B2 has legal guarding position, this seems contradictory. What should determine who bears responsibility for this contact?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

No, because a PC is a common foul. It can't be intentional.

While I agree with that statement according to the definitions, I do think it is possible to have an Intentional or flagrant foul on the ball handler. So it might not by called an Intentional PC, but for all intents and purposes it really is an intentional pc.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by rfp

What should determine who bears responsibility for this contact?

It's not "what" determines it, it's "who" determines who bears the responsibility. And the answer is "You do"...you have to see the entire play and make a decision on 1st:does the contact warrant a whistle, and 2nd:who created the contact...it's why you get paid the big bucks.