Is this a T?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

I'm leaning for a throw-in violation for failing to pass the ball directly onto the court.

7-5-7 a says: make a direct throw-in or pass the ball to a teammate OOB...putting the ball on the floor isn't passing and it isn't directly throwing the ball in.

BZ:

In MHO, I suggest that you RE-read NFHS R7-S5-A7 completely, especially the last sentence of the article, as well as the rule that defines when a throw-in ends before you call a throw-in violation on Team A.

MTD, Sr.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

BZ:

In MHO, I suggest that you RE-read NFHS R7-S5-A7 completely, especially the last sentence of the article, as well as the rule that defines when a throw-in ends before you call a throw-in violation on Team A.

MTD, Sr.

I read it again and it still says team A may make a throw-in from anywhere along the end line and the thrower may make a direct throw-in...A1 didn't...or pass the ball to a teammate(s) outside the boundary...again A1 didn't.

The throw-in ending isn't germane to team A violating prior to the ball touching a player.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

I read it again and it still says team A may make a throw-in from anywhere along the end line and the thrower may make a direct throw-in...A1 didn't...or pass the ball to a teammate(s) outside the boundary...again A1 didn't.

The throw-in ending isn't germane to team A violating prior to the ball touching a player.

BZ:

When a throw-in, as in NFHS R7-S5-A7, is germane, more importantly, this is NOT a designated spot throw-in. NFHS R7-S6-A1 notes that NFHS R7-S5-A7 is an exception to only one player making the throw-in. NFHS R7-S5-A7 allows the following sceniaros:

1) All five (5) players from Team A are behind the endline. A1 passes the ball to A2, who passes the ball to A3, who passes the ball to A4, who passes the ball to A5, who passes the ball to A1 who then passes the ball to A3 who is standing inbounds. A1 released his pass to A3 before the five (5) second throw-in count expires.

2) A1 passes the ball to A2 who is behind the endline, after he passes the ball to A2 he steps inbounds. A2 sets the ball down on the floor behind the endline and steps inbounds. A3 then steps out-of-bounds, picks up the ball and passes the ball to A4 who is standing inbounds. A3 released his pass to A4 before the five (5) second throw-in count expires.

3) I could go on with more plays but I think you see my point, that this throw-in is not a designated throw-in and the rules allow the team who has the ball for the throw-in much latitude in making a legal throw-in.

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

2) A1 passes the ball to A2 who is behind the endline, after he passes the ball to A2 he steps inbounds. A2 sets the ball down on the floor behind the endline and steps inbounds. A3 then steps out-of-bounds, picks up the ball and passes the ball to A4 who is standing out-of-bounds. A3 released his pass to A4 before the five (5) second throw-in count expires.

Care to fix that?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Care to fix that?

I fixed it. See what happens when one becomes a bald old geezer. I can't wait for Mark, Jr. to pass his OhioHSAA basketball officiating class in December so that he can carry his "old man" on the court.

MTD, Sr.

[Jimgolf]

This might be the most obscure post I've seen. And then someone posts that the play actually occurred during a game they worked!

What's the distinction between control and possession? How can a player possess a ball and not control it? Can you have player control but not team control? <--- Rhetorical questions, please don't answer.

This is confusing because the rule book uses common everyday words but defines them more narrowly than the general populace usually does. It would be clearer to the average person if the rule book had it's own terminology for control and possession.

I guess that's why Rule 4 is the most important rule to master. You need to learn to speak and think in NFHS and forget English.

My instinctive take is that if the official is using ROP, then the ball on the floor has to be considered in possession of the team that's supposed to be throwing the ball in. Conversely, the ball placed on the floor by the player is part of a pass. I'll have to read the definitions on all of these to be sure.

Thanks for a thought provoking discussion. I've had an epiphany.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

This is confusing because the rule book uses common everyday words but defines them more narrowly than the general populace usually does. It would be clearer to the average person if the rule book had it's own terminology for control and possession.

I guess that's why Rule 4 is the most important rule to master. You need to learn to speak and think in NFHS and forget English.

AMEN!!

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

This might be the most obscure post I've seen. And then someone posts that the play actually occurred during a game they worked!

What's the distinction between control and possession? How can a player possess a ball and not control it? Can you have player control but not team control? <--- Rhetorical questions, please don't answer.

This is confusing because the rule book uses common everyday words but defines them more narrowly than the general populace usually does. It would be clearer to the average person if the rule book had it's own terminology for control and possession.

I guess that's why Rule 4 is the most important rule to master. You need to learn to speak and think in NFHS and forget English.

My instinctive take is that if the official is using ROP, then the ball on the floor has to be considered in possession of the team that's supposed to be throwing the ball in. Conversely, the ball placed on the floor by the player is part of a pass. I'll have to read the definitions on all of these to be sure.

Thanks for a thought provoking discussion. I've had an epiphany.

JimGolf:

Since this thread concerns itself with at game being played under NFHS Rules, all of my rule references will be NFHS. Rule 4 defines player control and team control. One will not find a definition for possession. The definitions of player and team control require that the ball be live and have inbounds court status. The ball is live during a throw-in but does not have inbounds court status. The word possession has traditionally been used when the ball has been placed at the disposal of a team for a throw-in. One can then say that once the ball is at the disposal of a team for a throw-in the team has possession of the ball and if a player from that team is holding the ball the player has possession of the ball, hence there is Team Possession and Player Possession.

MTD, Sr.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

I read it again and it still says team A may make a throw-in from anywhere along the end line and the thrower may make a direct throw-in...A1 didn't...or pass the ball to a teammate(s) outside the boundary...again A1 didn't.

*Not knowing if I want to jump in the middle of this one*

This may again be one of those situations where may is an important word. Just because A may do those things doesn't mean those are the only two options...