Oh My Gosh!

[BLydic]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

A's touch in the backcourt gives the ball backcourt status simultaneous with the touch. Agree?

Totally agree.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Now, consider this part of the rule: "touched...the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt". Who was the last person to touch it BEFORE it went to the backcourt? B2Basically, you draw a line in time at the very instant the ball gains BC status. If the last player to touch the ball before that point in time was team A and the first player after that point in time was team A, you have a violation. (Assuming team control).

I agree B2 is the last to touch player in the FC to touch the ball. I'm just having a problem with saying B2 caused the ball to get to the BC.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

It's not close enough to compare...having the ball go to the BC is not a violation as going OOB is.

And it's these analogies that continue to haunt me.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BLydic

9-1-1 says... A player shall not be the first to touch a ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt...

Notice, there's no "and" in the rule.

The ball has status of FC or BC.
Team control continues once it's been established.

Once team control has been established, and the ball gains FC status, there is now team control in the FC.

There is no requirement for Player control to be established in the FC.

Otherwise, a pass from A1 (in the BC) to A2 (in the FC) that is never caught by A2 but instead gets muffed back to A1 would not be a violation. But it is.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The ball has status of FC or BC.
Team control continues once it's been established.

Once team control has been established, and the ball gains FC status, there is now team control in the FC.

There is no requirement for Player control to be established in the FC.

Otherwise, a pass from A1 (in the BC) to A2 (in the FC) that is never caught by A2 but instead gets muffed back to A1 would not be a violation. But it is.

But again the million $ question is how are you going to call it if it happens? I don't remember ever having this happen, but it seems so routine of a non-call, I actually probably did but let it go at the time...what are you going to do now?

[Adam]

I'm calling my last play (post 47) a violation. It meets all the requirements by rule and interp.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm calling my last play (post 47) a violation. It meets all the requirements by rule and interp.

You are talking about the tip by B in the FC of a ball being dribbled by A in the BC? You are calling that a violation?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by kbilla

You are talking about the tip by B in the FC of a ball being dribbled by A in the BC? You are calling that a violation?

No. I'm talking about the muffed pass from BC to FC that bounces back into the BC before being retrieved by the passer.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

No. I'm talking about the muffed pass from BC to FC that bounces back into the BC before being retrieved by the passer.

Gotcha, agreed on that...but you are not calling the play specifically spelled out in interp in question a BC violation? I don't agree with it, but I have a hard time not calling it if it is specifically spelled out that way..

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The ball has status of FC or BC.
Team control continues once it's been established.

Once team control has been established, and the ball gains FC status, there is now team control in the FC.

There is no requirement for Player control to be established in the FC.

Otherwise, a pass from A1 (in the BC) to A2 (in the FC) that is never caught by A2 but instead gets muffed back to A1 would not be a violation. But it is.

Same play setup, but change A2 to B2 and stipulate that A1 catches the rebound without the ball bouncing in the backcourt.

What do you call now?

[BLydic]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Once team control has been established, and the ball gains FC status, there is now team control in the FC.

There is no requirement for Player control to be established in the FC.

Otherwise, a pass from A1 (in the BC) to A2 (in the FC) that is never caught by A2 but instead gets muffed back to A1 would not be a violation. But it is.

Good point.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Same play setup, but change A2 to B2 and stipulate that A1 catches the rebound without the ball bouncing in the backcourt.

What do you call now?

By rule or by interp?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

By rule or by interp?

Exactly my point. They generate different answers.

[BLydic]

Although it's dark here, the clouds broke and the sun is shining. Thanks for helping me better understand the rule requirements for a BC violation in a somewhat confusing situation (at least for me) and especially how they don't jive with the Fed interpretation. It is much appreciated.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BLydic

9-1-1 says... A player shall not be the first to touch a ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt...

Notice, there's no "and" in the rule.

Note that there is no need for a player from team A to even touch the ball in the FC for a ball to be in team control in the frontcourt.

Player A1, holding the ball in the backcourt (implies team control), passes the ball towards A2. The pass is a bounce pass and the bounce occurs in the FC (esablished FC status for the ball, even without touching a player). If that just happens to be a cross-court pass right at the division line (e.g. A1 straddling the division line to A2 also staddling the division line), that will be a violation even though not team A player ever touched the ball in the FC.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BLydic

I agree B2 is the last to touch player in the FC to touch the ball. I'm just having a problem with saying B2 caused the ball to get to the BC.

The thing to remember is that it is not a violation ot cause the ball to get to the BC. That is where it is different from OOB calls.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Note that there is no need for a player from team A to even touch the ball in the FC for a ball to be in team control in the frontcourt.

Player A1, holding the ball in the backcourt (implies team control), passes the ball towards A2. The pass is a bounce pass and the bounce occurs in the FC (esablished FC status for the ball, even without touching a player). If that just happens to be a cross-court pass right at the division line (e.g. A1 straddling the division line to A2 also staddling the division line), that will be a violation even though not team A player ever touched the ball in the FC.

Or, consider a drop-pass from A1 right at the division line, FC side.
A1 drops the ball for a pass to A2, who is trailing. A2 grabs the ball before gaining FC status. Violation.