Touch foul to stop clock

[BillyMac]

This is part of my early season, or rookie partner, pregame conference:

Last Two Minutes

Near the end of the game, be aware of coaches calling time-outs and be sure to inform them after they have used all their time outs.

We’re not calling anything in the last two minutes if we haven’t already called it earlier in the game, unless it’s so blatant that it can’t be ignored. We don’t want our first illegal screen to be called with 30 seconds left in the game; but if the illegal screen puts a player into the first row of the bleachers, then we have to call it.

Let’s not put the whistles away in the last two minutes: That wouldn’t be consistent with the way we’ve been calling the game. If the game dictates it, let the players win or lose the game at the line. We don’t want to be the ones who decide the game by ignoring obvious fouls just to get the game over.

End of game strategic fouls: If the winning team is just holding the ball and is willing to take the free throws, then let’s call the foul immediately, so the ballhandler doesn’t get hit harder to draw a whistle. Let’s make sure there is a play on the ball by the defense. If there’s no play on the ball, if the defense grabs the jersey from behind, or if the ballhandler receives a bear hug, we should consider an intentional foul. These are not basketball plays and should be penalized as intentional.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

The point, Philz, is that you needed to call that touch foul, and if it's not a basketball play, call it an intentional. If they complain, you tell that it's just the way it's gonna be. If they're fouling to stop the clock, and they don't use legitimate means, it's an intention. I"d say barely touching the shorts falls into that category.

No, my point was exactly the opposite. If he would not have called that light touch on the shorts a foul in the first quarter and would have instead allowed the team to have a 3 on 1 fastbreak, then he should also ignore the contact in the final minutes of the game.

Do not reward a team for doing something illegal.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mick

The player had some hops.

If I keep making puns in this thread, I'll be a cereal punner.

[Back In The Saddle]

Philz,

Rainmaker's response aside, I think you have heard the correct answer. I would certainly not call that a foul. But I would question whether or not there had been anything else in the game that led to the "head tackle." That's a pretty big leap, even for wreck ball.

Being wreck ball, the teams probably know each other and there may have been bad blood already. That happens. And wreck leagues are notorious for ***holes whose basic game philosophy includes the notion of "I'll show them!"

As I've matured as an official, I can now look back at games where trouble errupted and can usually identify places where I didn't recognize something was brewing and nip it in the bud. Normally, at least in men's ball, even if somebody does something stupid or outrageous, if it gets called right away, the "victim" will usually let it go. But if "things" don't get called, frustration starts to build. Even if it appears that two guys are going at each other pretty much equally, and nobody is gaining an advantage, you probably have frustration building on at least one person's part. You need to set the accepted level of physicality, not the players. I knew that I was on the right track when I started calling some fouls early just to clean up play, and the guy getting fouled would thank me. He hadn't necessarily shown that he was unhappy with what had been going on at the time, but his response made it clear that he was.

Just my $0.02

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If I keep making puns in this thread, I'll be a cereal punner.

Just keep milking it, will you?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Philz

I was recently doing a Rec league game, NCAA rules when Team A leading got a rebound and a fast break. Player B1 reaches and barely touches the shorts and I mean "barely" with both hands of A1 to try and stop the clock but I dont call it and Team A scores easily on a 3 on 1 break. B1 goes nuts on my no call. I mentioned to him you must make and attempt for the ball. I could have called an intentional foul so I basically gave you break but your soft touch didnt seem to impeed offensive player and I'm not going to penalize them when they had a fast break going. His reply is "were not trying to hurt anyone out here just trying to stop the clock". I said you can make an attempt for the ball without hurting anyone. The next foul by team B was a head tackle on team A. Both benches empty. There was less than a minute left team A up by 9.....I called the game but was vebally abuised all the way to the parking lot. I gave this a lot of thought and one thing I could have done different was warn the team B coach when the game was getting down to the end and it was apparent that they would try and stop the clock with a foul is to make sure his players went for the ball. Any other suggestions?

In my area's wreck games, there are less and less officials available becauase of the BS that goes on.

I think not calling the foul was the correct call. I also think that the action that caused the benches to empty is a flagrant foul. I also think that I'm phoning the assignor when I get home and tell them to find someone else. That's my suggestion.

If you still wish to do these games, don't back down on being the referee you're supposed to be. They'll respect you more in the end for not being a pushover. An attempt to foul by brushing the shirt with fingertips is not a foul.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

An attempt to foul by brushing the shirt with fingertips is not a foul.

Yep, clearly this team doesn't understand how to correctly make strategic fouls. That is what it really comes down to.

[Snake~eyes]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I agree if the offense is just standing there waiting to get fouled. I might even agree if the offense is just passing the ball around in a game of "keep away". But, I don't agree if the touch foul occurs while A1 is driving to the basket.

You are correct, I read the question way to fast, on a fast break I would ignore the contact too.

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by Philz

I was recently doing a Rec league game, NCAA rules when Team A leading got a rebound and a fast break. Player B1 reaches and barely touches the shorts and I mean "barley" with both hands of A1 to try and stop the clock but I dont call it and Team A scores easily on a 3 on 1 break. B1 goes nuts on my no call. I mentioned to him you must make and attempt for the ball. I could have called an intentional foul so I basically gave you break but your soft touch didnt seem to impeed offensive player and I'm not going to penalize them when they had a fast break going. His reply is "were not trying to hurt anyone out here just trying to stop the clock". I said you can make an attempt for the ball without hurting anyone. The next foul by team B was a head tackle on team A. Both benches empty. There was less than a minute left team A up by 9.....I called the game but was vebally abuised all the way to the parking lot. I gave this a lot of thought and one thing I could have done different was warn the team B coach when the game was getting down to the end and it was apparent that they would try and stop the clock with a foul is to make sure his players went for the ball. Any other suggestions?

End of game situation you know the team behind is going to foul to stop the clock. No need to discuss this with the Coach. There's "physical contact in basketball" If contact gives a player an advantage call the foul. Whether I would call a foul in the situation you described depends depends on how physical the game was. If it was a hack fest I would probably call it to keep the game under control. If it wasn't I probably would have let them play on. There's no reason for you to discuss at any time why you did or did not call a foul.

[gordon30307]

If your brave (or foolish) enough to do men's leagues Tee early (let them no you mean business) and late to send the same message to the two teams waiting to play the next game. Never do mens leagues where there is not adequate supervision.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I'm not sure that's the point, to be honest. Would that play have been a foul -- or an intentional foul -- in the first quarter? I doubt it. Merely brushing the shorts is never a foul, unless the offense is just standing there, waiting to take the foul.

I think the point is, call what's there. If there's contact during a regular "basketball play" that impedes the offensive player, it's a common foul. If not, it's nothing. If the defender comes back and mugs somebody or grabs and pulls the jersey, it's an intentional foul.

I can't envision a case where I'd call a foul for barely touching a player's shorts (unless, as I said, the offensive player was simply waiting to be fouled).

Okay, maybe I mis read Nevada's post. But, yea, it would be an intentional foul in the first half. contact designed to stop the clock. That's an intentional regarless of the severity of the contact, and regardless of the time in the game. Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

Are we talking about apricots now?