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Sun Jan 27, 2002, 09:55pm
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I'm not in a corner, although my computer is. It's just a waste of time to quote the rule for you. But here i go, wasting time. Here's the rule and a case book play.
4-12-1 A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds. There is no player control during an interrupted dribble. 4.15.4 SITUATION E: (a) A1 tosses the ball from one hand to the other while keeping his/her pivot foot in contact with the floor; or (b) A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. Ruling: Legal in (a), but a traveling violation in (b). In (b), A1 may not move his/her pivot foot without violating. Since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is not part of a dribble nor is it the start and end of a dribble. (9-4) It'll be a cold day in hell when you get me in a corner. 
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott "You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith 
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Sun Jan 27, 2002, 09:58pm
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Yup...nope...yup...nope. Do I know better? I believe the player is in control during the tosses, eventhough he may not be touching the ball, because he had control and he has not lost control. mick
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Sun Jan 27, 2002, 10:08pm
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Now, when the player releases the ball to the floor, that is where Tony and I see a need for definition. Tony uses the rules (and I do not disagree with his rule interpretation), but I am using my gut. mick
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Sun Jan 27, 2002, 10:15pm
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__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott "You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith
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Sun Jan 27, 2002, 10:35pm
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Sun Jan 27, 2002, 10:52pm
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 There's no rule because it's not illegal or a violation. The situation where it is illegal is addressed in 4.43.5b. Tossing the ball is also addressed. There's no rule or case play that supports PC when the ball is sitting on the floor.
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott "You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith
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Sun Jan 27, 2002, 11:59pm
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devdog 69 said on Jan. 27, 2002, 11:12am:
"I would have granted her an official's timeout and let her tie her shoe, or told her to get across halfcourt first and then done it." BktBallRef said on Jan. 27, 2002, 11:57am: "She didn't dribble again, so there's no double dribble. If she put her knee down when she tied her shoe, picked the ball up, and stood, then she traveled. I don't see any other possibilities. I don't call TO to allow a player to tie her shoe." First, there is no such thing as an official's timeout. Second, the official is not to stop play unless the player requests a team timeout. Starting with the 1963-64 season, the National Basketball Committee of the United States and Canada (the predecessor to the NFHS and NCAA Rules Committees) changed the rules by deleting a section in the rules that allowed an official to stop play so that a player could tie a shoe lace. This deletion was not an editorial change but an actual change in the rules. For verification see 1963 in Part 1: The Game of Basketball, Chronology of Basketball Rules, NFHS Basketball Handbook 2000-02. When the NBCUSC split into the NFHS and NCAA Rules Committees, all interpretations of the NBCUSC carried over to the NFHS and NCAA. This means an official is also not to delay making a ball become live by witholding it from play so that a player can tie a shoe lace. I am not going to get into a philosophical debate over this point because it is not debatable. Players even at the jr. H.S. level are capable of tieing their shoes before the game in such a manner that their shoes do not come untied and if they are not tieing their shoes in such a manner shame on them, their parents, their coach.
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Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn. Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn. Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials Ohio High School Athletic Association Toledo, Ohio
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Mon Jan 28, 2002, 12:04am
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I agree with you BktBallRef, but now I have given you the Mafia Kiss of Death.
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Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn. Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn. Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials Ohio High School Athletic Association Toledo, Ohio
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Mon Jan 28, 2002, 12:18am
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An official must learn to apply existing cases to novel situations. When repeatedly Tossing (upward): release, grab, release, grab, ect. Setting on floor and picking up: release, grab, release, grab, ect. One occurs in the air, one occurs at the ground. So if it is traveling to step while tossing, then it is traveling to step while "placing." I'm done, further debate will not help either of us. I appreciate the discussion.
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Mon Jan 28, 2002, 12:34am
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 Slider, a player must be holding the ball to travel with 2 exceptions. 1- Throwing a pass to one's self, as described in 4.15.4e 2- Gaining player control while part of the body, other than the hand or knee is touching the floor, placing the ball on the floor, getting up and picking it up as described in 4.43.5b. Now, supply a case book or rule that backs up your stand. Otherwise, admit that I have you in a corner. Quote:
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott "You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith
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