Verbal Abuse of Coach to Players

[bard]

I can't resist putting my 2-cents worth in here. Coaches yell at their kids. (I yell at mine sometimes!) Sometimes that's the way to get their attention, especially if you only have 30 or 60 seconds to do it!

The questions that need to be addressed here is whether or not profanity constitutes unsportsmanlike behavior and whether or not we have jurisdiction while teams are in a huddle.

The latter question is definitely true. Bench personnel and players are within our jurisdiction during the game. In fact, if a team is using a VCR in the lockerroom at half time to review plays, we can go in and T them up for that! (NFHS)

Is profanity from the coach unsportsmanlike. It's definitely unsportsmanlike from the players. (10.3.8.b) Bench staff are also clearly prohibited from profanity. (10.4.1.c) Regrettfully, there is less clarity regarding the head coach's behavior. However, the rules book is clear in its stance on profanity, and the stance is that there is no place for it in the game of basketball. Would stopping the coach from using profane language improve the game? Absolutely!

Is this a common sense approach? Even though Rut may disagree, it is. This type of activity degrades the game, offends most, and violates the rules. For me, zero tolerance.

BTW, in response to another post in this thread, I've agreed with Rut more than once. This just doesn't happen to be one of those times! ;-)

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by bard


BTW, in response to another post in this thread, I've agreed with Rut more than once. This just doesn't happen to be one of those times! ;-)

If a player or coach is using language to themselves, to a teammate or under their breath, I am not giving T just because I heard it. Now I might say something if I know it was them or I can pick them out, but I am not giving a T if that is among teammates.

Look, the common sense thing to do is to give a T when it makes the game better. I personally do not understand how a kid saying something under his breath or a coach talking to his kids is going to make the game better. I will give Ts to kids if they say the wrong thing to opponents any day, and not a word of profanity necessarily had to come out of their mouth.

I guess the thing I am not stuck on is profanity. And considering that profanity or what is considered as profane is different from where you live and the community that surrounds it. Some people think if you say, "that pisses me off," you have violated some profanity law.

And you are not going to make the game better if all you worry about is language. Because if you think this world does not have language that these kid are going to here or be exposed to, then I guess you live in a different environment than I do.

I personally have more problems with kids complaining to me every time I call something and being demonstrative about it than what comes out of their mouths.

But there is more than one way to the mountain top, and mine route does not have to match yours.

And as it relates to abusive behavior by a coach, that is there thing. It is not my job to save the world as an official, I will not. I will be the bad guy instead of the coach or administrators that sees much more of the situation than I ever will watching one game.

Peace

[bigwhistle]

It is easy to see that the standards that we allow to happen have eroded severely over time. And don't give me the line that it is the environment in which we live. If you have an opportunity to fix a problem and don't do it, then you are not only avoiding the solution, you are a part of the problem.

Allow the profanity loud enough to offend someone and don't penalize it.....TELL ME WHAT MESSAGE YOU ARE SENDING!

So now the player in a real life situation that matters, i.e. at the job or in the classroom, comes out with the language and gets suspended or loses a job.......WELL DONE!!!!!! We will have done OUR part to mold this young man or woman.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by bigwhistle
It is easy to see that the standards that we allow to happen have eroded severely over time. And don't give me the line that it is the environment in which we live. If you have an opportunity to fix a problem and don't do it, then you are not only avoiding the solution, you are a part of the problem.

Allow the profanity loud enough to offend someone and don't penalize it.....TELL ME WHAT MESSAGE YOU ARE SENDING!

So now the player in a real life situation that matters, i.e. at the job or in the classroom, comes out with the language and gets suspended or loses a job.......WELL DONE!!!!!! We will have done OUR part to mold this young man or woman.

I DO NOT CARE WHAT MESSAGE IS BEING SENT. You think that kids are cursing all over the place. I hope you are more intellegent than that?

And depending on the teacher and the sitauation, not all kids are going to get suspended or teachers are not going to lose their jobs for saying one profane comment. Sorry, but it does not happen that way.

The problem with "zero tolerance" is it comes with zero thinking. There are slang terms that are much harsher than what you might say is typically profane. And those might catch my attention much more than a kid that curses under his breath to himself after blowing a play. And if you are not aware of those terms, you might find yourself having a double standard.

Do what you want, do what you feel is right, I will do the same. AND I AM NOT GIVING A T FOR WHAT SOMEONE THINKS IS ABUSE. That would be the dumbest thing to do in my opinion.

[Steve]

Just a suggestion. Don't take anymore games there. When the AD asks you why you deny a contract, tell him up front that you do not agree with the way the coach handles his players. Let the school and administration handle this problem. Not you. Remember, what goes around, comes around.

[Oz Referee]

Here's my thoughts on this thread (in case anyone cares).

Firstly, Australia is a lot more laid back when it comes to "political correctness" - this may or may not be a good thing, but it is a fact. This attitude flows over onto the basketball court, and I would imagine that, as a generalisation, most Australian referee's have a more relaxed attitude towards "foul" language than the average North American.

Secondly, I believe that it is the job of the referees to enforce the rules, not the quality of coaching. I am a referee, coach, player and administrator of basketball, and I've been around the sport for a while. Some of the teams and players that I ave coached in the past have responded best to being yelled at. Others have needed reassurance and positive re-inforcement. I have a degree in psychology, and it is a well known fact that different people respond to stimuli in different ways. I feel that it is up to the coach to determine which is the best way of getting the most out of his team - whether he uses "great job Johnny", or "Pull your damn finger out, you wimp" is up to the coach (and maybe the administration).

Having said that, if a coach starts using clearly audible, "foul" language, I'll be the first person to T them up. But if their language is loud, confrontational, agressive, or demeaning without swearing - that's their perogative.

You might not agree with the coaching methods, but you can't T them for that - would you T a coach for unsportsmanlike behaviour for playing a zone when you think they should be in man?

Phew....I'm done!

[Slider]

Originally posted by JRutledge PS. The COMMENTS talk about profanity, not abuse

The origianl post in this thread talked about foul language coming from his huddles, so there apparently was profanity. Do what you want Rut, enforce only the rules you like.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Slider

The origianl post in this thread talked about foul language coming from his huddles, so there apparently was profanity. Do what you want Rut, enforce only the rules you like.

Why are you so close to the huddle that you can hear what is being said about anything? And if you are so close, are you going to give the coach a T if they are talking
about you and do not use any profanity calling you names? What if the coach is getting personal about you but talking to his players and not you?

Are you going to apply rule 4-1a and give Ts everytime a coach is not talking to you and to his players in the huddle?

Rule 4-1b happens every game, but you do not see me giving Ts because a coach tries to tell me what happen, trying to get me to chance the way I call the game.

If that is the way you want to be an official, then I guess you will not be moving up too much. You better use more common sense than that.

You go right ahead and do that crap and you might not be close enough to any other huddles to give a T the next time. Unless it is a rec. game.

Multiple fouls are in the rulebook, but I will be damned (profanity I should get a T ) if I am going to call one anytime soon either.

Peace

[bard]

Rut--I'll try not to drag this out much longer. Just one comment and one confession:

Why are you so close to the huddle that you can hear what is being said about anything? And if you are so close, are you going to give the coach a T if they are talking
about you and do not use any profanity calling you names? What if the coach is getting personal about you but talking to his players and not you?

First of all, I've never heard anything out of line in a huddle, so all of this, for me, is speculation. However, I'm close to the huddle while reporting the TO, if I'm passing information to the coaches ("Only 1 TO left, coach."), and if I'm getting the team out of the huddle when the TO is over. And sometimes you can not only hear the coaches from anywhere on the court, but also from the diner down the street!

If I heard the coach get personal about me to his players? Yep, I'd ring him up fast. If he's dumb enough to do that when I can hear, he deserves it!

Okay, the confession. Last night, I filled in for a 6th grade boy's game. A14 is a skinny, out-of-control kid having a rough night. He gets knocked to the floor--again. Barely audible, while I'm next to him, I hear "Shi..." He sees me before the 't' comes out to finish the word. I let it pass.

In retrospect, I should have either given him the 'T' or talked to him, because he pushed the edge of unsportsmanlike the rest of the game. He needed a lesson, and I missed the opportunity.

As fate would have it, I see these same kids tonight... I'm thinking I'll start with a captain's meeting!

[tharbert]

Two years ago, a Louisiana Boys high school coach/AD kicked a player during a game. Charges were filed and he was dropped from the school payroll. He was picked up by another school last year and coaches again at the same level.

This year, now in Illinois (I moved) another coach crossed the line. During practice, he had the kids remove their jersies and walk around in skivies because they weren't worthy of wearing the school colors.

In both cases, the kids are the ones who turned these idiots in by talking to their parrents. Parents called parents and things came to light. It wasn't the super sensitive ref or the concerned school board member sitting behind the bench.

Call the game and address the behavior on the court. We all pretty much know what constitutes language or behavior that crosses the line. Two free throws and the ball out of bounds or the subsequent boot are the only recourses we have. Nothing but the score is approved by us leaving the court in the forth quarter. We don't condone tactics, strategies, or coaching styles, only the score.

There are professional that deal anger, frustration, denial, abuse... We ain't them. Write the letters to the newspapers or school board if you have to but only as as a concerned citizen, not a referee. My two cents...

[JRutledge]

I know a coach that was fired at a school because he claimed that the players did not have balls, so he supposebly pulled down his pants (allegedly) and grabbed his balls and told the team "now these are balls."

He was told on by one of the kids and fired later.

Funny, this coach went to another school and became the AD and Boy's Coach and won a State Title later.

Did not take an official to report this, kind of hard when it happens in the locker room.

Peace

[Spaman_29]

Humm it has been interesting to read the comments and suggestions. I do want to add a little bit more that opens the picture up a little bit more. This school is on an army base out in the middle of nowhere. They have a hard enough time getting anyone to teach there let alone coach as well. And the coach used to be the president of the coaches association in the state. Yes there have been complaints, by many officials, parents, and opposing coaches. But nothing has ever been done. You don't hear the language unless you happen to walk by, or at the end when the horn goes off. I am not one that is listening for something to T the coach up for, nor am I quick on the whistle. But I do work at a state hospital and I DO recognize the behavior as a problem. Will I do something more? Hey I don't know but it bothers me nonetheless.

[michaelj23]

First instinct would be to give a T, but it penalizes the players, as many posts have stated. Also, trying to talk to a coach that uses methods of intimidation is only going to make things worse on you. You try to talk to the coach and he does not respond favorably, then you are going to T him. This will look like you baited him into the response.

As a parent, coach & official - I can't imagine just letting the actions go. An option would be to have the school's on-site administrator talk to the coach. Another option is to have game management remove the offender.

I know this is drastic, but it is an option. If you had someone in the gym that was being verbally abusive and using profane language, I'd hope that you'd have them removed from the gym. It does not matter if the person is directing the insults toward the officiating, the other team or a specific player. The coach should not be given special treatment just because he's on the bench.

Many of you will say, 'What about Bobby Knight? You going to have hime removed?'. My comment is directed toward the original post of this being a High School game. College carries different baggage. A high school game is an extension of the classroom (this exact statement is read at the beginning of every game in my area by the announcer). Therefore, proper decorum is expected by all participants. If it is not, then they should be removed - either by the official on the court (fighting, taunting, etc.) or by game management (abusive fans, weapons, etc.).

As a coach, I understand the need to raise your voice or to call out a player. However, as an adult & parent I know when the line is crossed. I'm sure most of you know, too.

This is one of those 'you-have-to-be-there' situations. I'm not sure how I would handle the situation, but I am sure that I'm not going to turn a blind-eye.

[mick]

Originally posted by bard
Barely audible, while I'm next to him, I hear "Shi..." He sees me before the 't' comes out to finish the word. I let it pass.

In retrospect, I should have either given him the 'T' or talked to him, because he pushed the edge of unsportsmanlike the rest of the game. He needed a lesson, and I missed the opportunity.

As fate would have it, I see these same kids tonight... I'm thinking I'll start with a captain's meeting!

bard,
I don't think you had to school him.
He knew better and held up.
I'm glad you didn't "T" him for his thought, it could have been "She(eze).
By the way, I handle the barely audible stuff with something like, "I didn't hear that, and I don't want to hear it again."
mick