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Old Thu Jan 24, 2002, 10:20pm
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Question

Time ticking down at the end of the game, with A-43 B-40. B1 fouls A1 and we have two shots for A1 with 2.3 seconds in game. A1 misses first shot, then when he has the ball for the second shot, A2 came flying into the lane from outside the arc ! No shot - blue (B) ball.

B then calls timeout. (And, of course, they think they'll get the ball at halfcourt.) B1 has ball under A's basket and throws a long one toward their own basket. Clock starts while ball was in the air (not tipped), A2 grabs it (with about 1.3 on the clock) and time expires. (The timer was A5's girlfriend, BTW. Don't think it was on purpose, though.)

Here's my question: horn did not go off in the air, so it wasn't "obvious." Should I reset the clock and re-do the throw-in if (a) A2 holds; (b) B catches and misses/shoots after the buzzer; or (c) B catches and makes the 3?
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Old Thu Jan 24, 2002, 10:43pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dexter
Time ticking down at the end of the game, with A-43 B-40. B1 fouls A1 and we have two shots for A1 with 2.3 seconds in game. A1 misses first shot, then when he has the ball for the second shot, A2 came flying into the lane from outside the arc ! No shot - blue (B) ball.

B then calls timeout. (And, of course, they think they'll get the ball at halfcourt.) B1 has ball under A's basket and throws a long one toward their own basket. Clock starts while ball was in the air (not tipped), A2 grabs it (with about 1.3 on the clock) and time expires. (The timer was A5's girlfriend, BTW. Don't think it was on purpose, though.)

Here's my question: horn did not go off in the air, so it wasn't "obvious." Should I reset the clock and re-do the throw-in if (a) A2 holds; (b) B catches and misses/shoots after the buzzer; or (c) B catches and makes the 3?
a. no
b. no
c. no

You can adjust the clock (minus 1 second lag time under NF)
but you can't redo the throw-in.
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Old Thu Jan 24, 2002, 10:55pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref

You can adjust the clock (minus 1 second lag time under NF)
but you can't redo the throw-in.
Only problem - no lag time on starting the clock; only on stopping.

I know the clock can be adjusted, but how much would be put on? Do I say that because 1 second ticked off, we're putting 1 second onto the clock and inbounding the ball? That doesn't seem right - especially if B shot the three and missed - we now go to the arrow?
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Old Thu Jan 24, 2002, 11:06pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dexter
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref

You can adjust the clock (minus 1 second lag time under NF)
but you can't redo the throw-in.
Only problem - no lag time on starting the clock; only on stopping.

I know the clock can be adjusted, but how much would be put on? Do I say that because 1 second ticked off, we're putting 1 second onto the clock and inbounding the ball? That doesn't seem right - especially if B shot the three and missed - we now go to the arrow?
Yeah you're right, lag on stopping only. To answer your
question, you put on exactly how much time you have definite
knowledge about. Case A & C are easy, you're gonna have an
immediate dead ball and you can go fix things (add the
amount of time you have definite knowledge of). In case B,
you better be a smooth talker if you judge the shot got off
before the *real* clock (the one in your head) has expired,
'cause you're gonna be pumping your arm & yelling
"count it! count it!".
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Old Thu Jan 24, 2002, 11:51pm
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Mark, did you see the clock start while the ball was in flight? You should have whistled it dead at that instant (retro to throw). Rethrow.

But, if you allowed time to run out, then you don't have definite knowledge anymore of the amount of time that passed (it apparently went past 0:00); and the horn did not sound.

So, give the ball to A with 0:00 (the only time you are sure of) on the clock, make them toss it in, and unless B taps the toss in for a three, then the game is over.

Well, it seemed logical as I was writing it
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Old Fri Jan 25, 2002, 01:51am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Slider
Mark, did you see the clock start while the ball was in flight? You should have whistled it dead at that instant (retro to throw). Rethrow.
Yes, I saw it out of the corner of my eye. I was lead in the FC, and trail didn't chop the time, but from the table it might have looked as if a defender tapped the ball.

Quote:

But, if you allowed time to run out, then you don't have definite knowledge anymore of the amount of time that passed (it apparently went past 0:00); and the horn did not sound.

So, give the ball to A with 0:00 (the only time you are sure of) on the clock, make them toss it in, and unless B taps the toss in for a three, then the game is over.

Well, it seemed logical as I was writing it
The horn did sound in our case. I guess I don't get this part.
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Old Fri Jan 25, 2002, 06:02am
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I was thrown by the part about the horn not going off "in the air".

Again, ideally, when you saw the clock start, you should have whistled play dead, and started over.

Since you didn't do that, give the ball back to the team in possession when the buzzer sounded, count all activity up to that time.

If neither team is in possession when the buzzer sounds, count a shot in flight if good, then go to the AP.

Do not credit the 3 if it was shot after the buzzer, the half-ending buzzer causes the ball to be dead even when it goes off prematurely.

You apparently have knowledge that 2.3 - 1.3 = 1.0 second accidently ran before A2 got the ball. That is the time you put back on the clock. Lag time is not a factor here.

Now, tell us, you made all this up didn't you?
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Old Fri Jan 25, 2002, 09:47am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Slider
Now, tell us, you made all this up didn't you?
I wish! Intramurals are like rec ball when it comes to having every crazy situation possible.
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Old Fri Jan 25, 2002, 11:11am
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First off this situation points out how much we need to communicate with the scoretable. There was a timeout. The two officials should have talked during the timeout, and anticipated the play. The officials in a situation like this need to walk over to the timer and tell them in no plain words that the ball will start on a chop and tell them which offical to watch. Tell them to not watch the ball but watch one of us and tell them which one you want to watch. It may be trail with the ball at the throw in or it may be lead because she is the one nearer the table watching the long pass and who will have the primary decision of counting the basket or not.

(When I referee, if there is less than 3 seconds on the clock, I have shots from backcourt(as trail) and my partner has shots from front court as lead, and the three point arc.)

If you tell the timer to watch the trail, the scorekeeper should only watch trail, but taril may have to sprint a ways to get the chop if it is iffy on a long pass.

Personally I like lead taking the chop on this one. Trail can watch the play, make sure that the clock starts because she will have the widest view of the floor and the clock and not worrying about where the clock starts 60 ft down the floor.

Trail would still be assisting in chopping the time, ( and hopefully you discussed the fact that if it is tipped that the trail will chop with a big signal) if it is touched trail can signal and lead can help pick it up because the lead should be standing so the can see the pass, the ball, the catch and shot, ( and would see trail with a big chop)


Slider,

I am not sure of a couple of things...

I am not sure I agree with killing the ball in flight, and redoing it, I might work however,I think this provides a distinct advantage/disadvantage... The teams have just used a time-out and set up a play and now everyone knows who is going to do what.

If the clock did not start, you would not know it until well into the play, and we are not going to redo that one for sure.

I am not sure I agree with your statement that "the half ending buzzer ends the half even if it goes off prematurely". I believe the rule states that it is the horn that ends the game not the 0:00. (personally I think it is a stupid rule and ought to be changed so that if the clock reads 0:00 the game is over) However this is to ensure that no time remains on the clock. in a 2 second time frame much could happen, (and yes the horn went off when it was 0:00 in this case) what would have happened if it were the scorekeeper who actually hit the horn trying to tell the officials he/she messed up and started the clock early? In a game with a coach (not an intramural game) There are going to be screaming coaches. B's coach will be yelling that the clock started for sure...He could not have set up a play that was a dribble drive. It still was going to be a long pass, catch, turn shoot play, If B catches at 1.3 turns and shoots the ball is away.... We sell the heck out of it ( in this case A can blame A's timer) and settle the game.

anyway there's my quarter
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Old Fri Jan 25, 2002, 02:15pm
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Kelvin green, you made many great points.

As for my logic on killing the throw-in in flight, it eliminates all the problems with the clock, horn, ect.

Regarding the set plays, let's hope the coach has conserved TO's and has another.

To my ears, the timer's signal going off at 0:00 or very close causes the ball to be dead or about to be dead by rule, and player activity ceases (2-12-7 and 6-7-6).
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Old Fri Jan 25, 2002, 03:10pm
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Well, I think I agree with the guys who said kill the clock while the ball is in the air, reset to 2.3, and re-do the inbounds (in this case, everyone knew the ball would be thrown deep down-court no matter what the situation) from the baseline. At least no one complained about the situation.

OTOH, I did correctly handle the other clock problem in this game. Hopefully I won't have ANY clock problems tonight!
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