Throw-in/Traveling

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

It's a good thing you put that grinning face there, buddy. I was about to make a call to my buddy Ditka. You wouldn't want that.

Ditka, he defined greatness before that Diebler fella was even born.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I forgot you are new. Veterans of this board usually do not pay that much attention to what Mark says.

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

It's a good thing you put that grinning face there, buddy. I was about to make a call to my buddy Ditka. You wouldn't want that.

Don't worry, Jeff. Ditka doesn't pay much attention to what Mark says either!

Hey, Mark-> (ps check your e-mail)

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Don't worry, Jeff. Ditka doesn't pay much attention to what Mark says either!

Maybe not, but I did go to HS with Dick Butkus' sisters. In fact, Dick used to tool around my town on a Harley while wearing leather. Man, you haven't seen anything scary until you've seen that.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Maybe not, but I did go to HS with Dick Butkus' sisters. In fact, Dick used to tool around my town on a Harley while wearing leather. Man, you haven't seen anything scary until you've seen that.

The man cannot walk anymore. What is he going to do, waddle after me?

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Ref in PA

If A1 finishes the slide, he may not roll to either side to protect the ball. As you say, if he ends on his back, he may sit up. Once the body begins rotating after the slide has finished, the traveling violation occurs.

To answer your question, violation per 4.44.5 B. That case expounds on a lot of things.

Yep, that's a great case play. Lots of information in there.
Unfortunately, you have hit upon one of my pet peeves. I see far too many officials penalize kids for making good plays by hustling and exerting effort simply because these officials don't fully understand the traveling rule. I don't know how you came to believe the above statements, but neither one of them is true.

Here's the text of that case play:
4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control. A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)

As you can see it is only illegal to "roll over." Now I don't know how you define that, but any reasonable person wouldn't consider it to be twisting to the side to protect the ball or the start of the rotation of the body.

The rules don't say that it is illegal to roll to the side, turn away from an opponent, or twist the body. If the NFHS wanted those actions to be illegal, they would have said so.

Perhaps JR will be kind enough to have his dog demonstrate rolling over for us.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Yep, that's a great case play. Lots of information in there.
Unfortunately, you have hit upon one of my pet peeves. I see far too many officials penalize kids for making good plays by hustling and exerting effort simply because these officials don't fully understand the traveling rule. I don't know how you came to believe the above statements, but neither one of them is true.

Here's the text of that case play:
4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control. A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)

As you can see it is only illegal to "roll over." Now I don't know how you define that, but any reasonable person wouldn't consider it to be twisting to the side to protect the ball or the start of the rotation of the body.

The rules don't say that it is illegal to roll to the side, turn away from an opponent, or twist the body. If the NFHS wanted those actions to be illegal, they would have said so.

Perhaps JR will be kind enough to have his dog demonstrate rolling over for us.

Oh boy, here we go. What is the defintion of a roll over? I would say that if he's on his back and turns to his side, he rolled over to his side. No one is going to sit there and do a 360 roll over with the ball. That is not practical, however, the twist, the start of a twist or rotation can be viewed as a roll over. Your arguement has merit and if you want the Fed. to describe every single term in details, the book would be 3 times it's size. We'll see what the other scholars have to say about this.

[SWMOzebra]

Tend to agree with Nevadaref on this...the literal definition of "over" includes "used as a function word to indicate position on the other side." Hence, the other side of being face-down on the floor is being face-up.

Having said that, I openly admit to often being too quick on the whistle when I see the face-down player beginning to roll to one side or the other. Partners, coaches and evaluators have all commented that I need to hold just another second or two before going to the travel call.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Old School

Oh boy, here we go. What is the defintion of a roll over? I would say that if he's on his back and turns to his side, he rolled over to his side. No one is going to sit there and do a 360 roll over with the ball. That is not practical, however, the twist, the start of a twist or rotation can be viewed as a roll over. Your arguement has merit and if you want the Fed. to describe every single term in details, the book would be 3 times it's size. We'll see what the other scholars have to say about this.

I agree...

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The rules don't say that it is illegal to roll to the side, turn away from an opponent, or twist the body. If the NFHS wanted those actions to be illegal, they would have said so.

Perhaps JR will be kind enough to have his dog demonstrate rolling over for us.

If he rolls to the side to protect the ball and defender comes to that side, then he rolls back to the other side to protect the ball, do you just let him do this roll back and forth until, I guess your five second count expires, if you're counting???

[Ref in PA]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Yep, that's a great case play. Lots of information in there.
Unfortunately, you have hit upon one of my pet peeves. I see far too many officials penalize kids for making good plays by hustling and exerting effort simply because these officials don't fully understand the traveling rule. I don't know how you came to believe the above statements, but neither one of them is true.

Here's the text of that case play:
4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control. A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)

As you can see it is only illegal to "roll over." Now I don't know how you define that, but any reasonable person wouldn't consider it to be twisting to the side to protect the ball or the start of the rotation of the body.

The rules don't say that it is illegal to roll to the side, turn away from an opponent, or twist the body. If the NFHS wanted those actions to be illegal, they would have said so.

*** Maybe the NFHS did say it was illegal when they said "roll over." I guess I am unreasonable because I disagree with your interpretation. ***

Perhaps JR will be kind enough to have his dog demonstrate rolling over for us.

I just related an interpretation in plain english of my understanding of the rule as given to me by my local interpreter. If this is not how it it called in your area, by all means call it the way your interpreter tells you.

But just what does roll over mean? a complete 360 revolution? a 180 turn (front to back)? a 90 turn just to the side?

What I was taught to look for was a pivot area. Is the butt moving around or what ever else in contact with the floor? Normally there is only a pivot foot touching the floor and the pivot is remain in one spot.

I was really unaware of different interpretations concerning allowable movement after a slide. Also note that the play must gain control after the slide has begun.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Ref in PA

What I was taught to look for was a pivot area. Is the butt moving around or what ever else in contact with the floor?

I once called a travel on a player on the floor for rolling with the ball. His coach yelled at me "How can that be a travel?". I yelled back, "He moved his pivot cheek, coach".

Here's the best part. The coach replied, "Oh."

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

I once called a travel on a player on the floor for rolling with the ball. His coach yelled at me "How can that be a travel?". I yelled back, "He moved his pivot cheek, coach".

Here's the best part. The coach replied, "Oh."

That's quite a punch line. You have a way with stories.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Ref in PA

But just what does roll over mean? a complete 360 revolution? a 180 turn (front to back)? a 90 turn just to the side?

What I was taught to look for was a pivot area. Is the butt moving around or what ever else in contact with the floor? Normally there is only a pivot foot touching the floor and the pivot is remain in one spot..

To add to this, and I don't think it's written anywhere. I also was told this by an interpretor. Looking for a pivot as RIP pointed out is a key (not the only key). In the adsence of a pivot foot, you go to the knees. In the absense of knees and feet being off the floor, you go to the butt for a pivot. If the player is lying flat on his a$$, that is his/her pivot, similiar to a jump stop. Now, if he rolls left, picking up the right buttock, the left buttock becomes the pivot, he then rolls back over the way, picking up the left buttock, he just switched pivots foots. That could be one reason the Fed. says you can't roll over.

Using this arguement, it would seem that you could legally roll one way, but not the other. However, consider the step, jump stop step. The player now does not have a pivot foot. If he steps again, or pivots again, after doing this step, jump step stop, it's a travel. The only thing he can do is pass, shoot, or call timeout.

Also want to point out that if the player lying on his buttock, attempts to get up to a knee. Again, he has just switched pivot foots. He went from buttock to knee, illegal. However, in my unique situation, the kid sat the ball next to him on the floor, and got up on his knees, but he had one hand on the ball. If he didn't have that one hand on the ball, I would say legal.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Old School

However, in my unique situation, the kid sat the ball next to him on the floor, and got up on his knees, but he had one hand on the ball. If he didn't have that one hand on the ball, I would say legal.

You might want to read case 4.44.5(B).

[Old School]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

You might want to read case 4.44.5(B).

Good point thanks, 4.44.5b: It is also traveling if A1 puts ball on floor and rises and is first to touch the ball.