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-   -   Bounce pass to self (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/37937-bounce-pass-self.html)

just another ref Wed Sep 05, 2007 01:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
That's a legitimate question. That and what if the defender fouls the offensive player during this same time frame (the time between after the ball has struck the floor, but prior to the offensive player touching it again)?

Certainly there is a need to know the exact point at which the violation occurs. The case play which you have cited provides the best clarification which I have seen. Of course, player control is of primary concern. If at any point the official deems that player control has ceased, then there is no longer a dribbler.

I can create a scenario in which a player who has already dribbled tosses the ball out in front of him several feet and then takes off after it, but before reaching it an opponent fouls this player. What should an official do?
If he tosses the ball several feet out in front, I think anyone would assume it was a pass attempt and wait to see what happens. In this case, I would think the foul certainly would be the call.

Nevadaref Wed Sep 05, 2007 01:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref
When the phrase "drops the ball" is used, we must indeed wait to see what happens next.
In past documentation that I am familiar with NFHS has treated "dropping" the ball to be a controlled, purposeful action by a player. (For example, see case play 4.44.3 SitA (d) which I just cited) When speaking of a fumble the NFHS uses the word "slips" to mean accidental loss of control.

Of course, "drops" is NOT one of the ways listed in 4-15-3 to start a dribble. (I've debated this before with BktBallRef as it applies to one of his backcourt scenarios.) However, 4.44.3 SitA (d) tells us that a dribble may be started in this manner as the ruling clearly states that this action is "a violation for starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor."

Nevadaref Wed Sep 05, 2007 01:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref
If he tosses the ball several feet out in front, I think anyone would assume it was a pass attempt and wait to see what happens. In this case, I would think the foul certainly would be the call.
Ok, but what if there was no other teammate anywhere on that half of the court? Similar to a play that you proposed earlier in this thread. ;)

My point is that officiating of plays cannot be reduced to writing in a book. A living person must observe the action on the court and use quality judgment to make whatever decision is appropriate for the given situation. That is the art of officiating.

just another ref Wed Sep 05, 2007 01:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Ok, but what if there was no other teammate anywhere on that half of the court? Similar to a play that you proposed earlier in this thread. ;)

My point is that officiating of plays cannot be reduced to writing in a book. A living person must observe the action on the court and use quality judgment to make whatever decision is appropriate for the given situation. That is the art of officiating.
You could think that he had a hallucination. The point I have tried all day to make is that if you are dealing with a remotely gray area, by all means let it play out. But the fact is, the vast majority of the time, when a player starts a dribble, it bears virtually no resemblance to anything that might be construed as a pass. Having met this airtight criteria, I have no problem sounding the whistle when the ball hits the floor.

Jurassic Referee Wed Sep 05, 2007 03:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref
The point I have tried all day to make is that if you are dealing with a remotely gray area, by all means let it play out. But the fact is, the vast majority of the time, when a player starts a dribble, it bears virtually no resemblance to anything that might be construed as a pass. Having met this airtight criteria, I have no problem sounding the whistle when the ball hits the floor.
And nobody in the world agrees with your point. You're still contradicting yourself constantly also by saying "let it play out" while you keep insisting <i>ad nauseum</i> on advocating <b>NOT</b> letting it play out. And you're also still refusing to acknowledge that the language used in the definition of a "pass" uses the exact same airtight criteria as that of a "dribble".

And I see that you've changed your cute l'il tag line to a possum and me also. Maybe you should change it to a possum and the <b>world</b> though. That's because the whole damn world disagrees with you.

Don't let any of the above stop you though. Continue continuing. :rolleyes:

Nevadaref Wed Sep 05, 2007 03:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
And I see that you've changed your cute l'il tag line to a possum and me also.
BTW there's a typo in his quip. :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref
"...easier that arguing..."

Jurassic Referee Wed Sep 05, 2007 06:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
BTW there's a typo in his quip. :D
It's a a cute l'il typo though.

just another ref Wed Sep 05, 2007 07:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
BTW there's a typo in his quip. :D

How'd that get there? I'm going back to the original quote. Gus and Woodrow shouldn't have to be dragged through all this mud.

just another ref Wed Sep 05, 2007 08:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
You're still contradicting yourself constantly also by saying "let it play out" while you keep insisting <i>ad nauseum</i> on advocating <b>NOT</b> letting it play out. And you're also still refusing to acknowledge that the language used in the definition of a "pass" uses the exact same airtight criteria as that of a "dribble".
You consider it contradictory when I am saying that not all plays are alike. Forget definitions for a minute. You mean to say that a player putting the ball on the floor to blow by his man to the basket and a player throwing a pass to a teammate look the same to you?

Mark Padgett Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
It's a a cute l'il typo though.
There's a typo in your typo comment. :D

Jurassic Referee Wed Sep 05, 2007 11:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
There's a typo in your typo comment. :D
Nope.

I stutter.

Mark Padgett Wed Sep 05, 2007 11:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Nope.

I stutter.
That must cause confusion when you b-b-b-b-b-b-blow your whistle. :D

mbyron Wed Sep 05, 2007 11:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
That must cause confusion when you b-b-b-b-b-b-blow your whistle. :D
Please: let's try to stay on-topic, and leave the Larry Craig jokes for another thread. :D

rainmaker Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:24pm
I thought I posted this yesterday, but now I can't find it. I asked our local commissioner, who is also our state rules interpreter, who was at one time on the NFHS rules committee, about this debate, and here's his reply.

A1 completes her dribble - drops the ball but does not touch it - legal - You could also rule that it was a bounce pass to a teammate or you could also rule a fumble.

That seems pretty clear to me. It's not a dribble, unless she touches it again, after the bounce.

Jurassic Referee Wed Sep 05, 2007 01:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
I thought I posted this yesterday, but now I can't find it. I asked our local commissioner, who is also our state rules interpreter, who was at one time on the NFHS rules committee, about this debate, and here's his reply.

A1 completes her dribble - drops the ball but does not touch it - legal - You could also rule that it was a bounce pass to a teammate or you could also rule a fumble.

That seems pretty clear to me. It's not a dribble, unless she touches it again, after the bounce.
Post #127 on the page before this.


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