Michigan joins the rest of us

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You said my example was apples and oranges, so is this example. Golf, tennis and soccer are not revenue college sports or revenue sports at the HS level either. If you need to know golf, tennis and soccer are all played in the fall or spring depending on gender. I am sure this is done on the either side to prevent taking kids away from the major sports.

I believe Lacrosse plays both genders at that same time. After all these sports you mentioned are outdoor sports and it would be very hard to move these sports to the winter in the Midwest. We all know that football, basketball and baseball/softball are king. The other sports would have little participation if you moved those sports to other times.



It is changing, now what? The bottom line the sky is not falling and you will adjust and get used to it like everyone else. All these other issues that you keep bring up are not very good reasons to keep girl's basketball in the fall. If the rest of the country is not having an issue with this, why is Michigan so behind the times on this? All I am hearing is little sarcastic comments about why the lawsuit was really brought. I just wanted to hear a compelling argument for things to stay the same. If all you can come up with are shots on Title IX and the motives behind the lawsuit that explains why this lawsuit was successful.

Peace

So... golf for boys is fall and golf for girls is spring? Last I checked golf courses were full of men and women at the same time. What does gender have to do with it? So are Illinois golf parents gonna sue because there kids do or don't play in the Fall? And what does revenue have to do with anything? This is HS athletics, extracurricular, etc.....


Lacrosse!!??!! If it wasn't for Duke, who'd know what the heck that was!?



If Michigan was so far behind the times, why are we in the top 5 for girls scholarships in the country for those 2 sports? Maybe all the other states are doing it wrong if all HS sports is about scholarships and revenue....

I can accept change,..I will accept change. I will coach in the winter, and maybe get Mick to officiate one of my contests.

But, I don't need to give a compelling argument on why to stay the same. I thought the law was about innocent until proven guilty? It wasn't broke don't mess with it, and I find it hard to believe that Michigan will pass the likes of Cal, Tex, NY...whoever, in number of scholarships.

[mick]

Originally Posted by CoachP

I can accept change,..I will accept change. I will coach in the winter, and maybe get Mick to officiate one of my contests.

Oh, sure you would, ...to make me pay for your long week in the U.P.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by CoachP

So... golf for boys is fall and golf for girls is spring? Last I checked golf courses were full of men and women at the same time. What does gender have to do with it? So are Illinois golf parents gonna sue because there kids do or don't play in the Fall? And what does revenue have to do with anything? This is HS athletics, extracurricular, etc.....

But the last time I checked football was the most popular boys sport in this country. If you played Boy's golf at the same time it would not bother me. Moving the golf season would very likely take some kids away from the golf team and in some cased would eliminate many golf programs. This is the same reason boy's volleyball plays in the spring. If you put it during the fall, you might not have a team.

Originally Posted by CoachP

Lacrosse!!??!! If it wasn't for Duke, who'd know what the heck that was!?

Seriously, Lacrosse is one of the most growing sports in my state. There are teams popping up everyone on both girl's and boy's sides. Kids who do not like baseball or softball but like a little contact play this sport.

Originally Posted by CoachP

If Michigan was so far behind the times, why are we in the top 5 for girls scholarships in the country for those 2 sports? Maybe all the other states are doing it wrong if all HS sports is about scholarships and revenue....

I will ask you the same question. Why can you not achieve the very same things under the same seasons as everyone else? If Girl's basketball is so big, it seems to me you might have people attend games that might ordinarily not attend those games because they are used to watching that sport when everyone else is playing. What is the big deal? And if many games in Michigan are going to be going to girl/boy doubleheaders, I think that would raise the level of interest. That does not work very well here, but there are many states this works very well.

Originally Posted by CoachP

But, I don't need to give a compelling argument on why to stay the same. I thought the law was about innocent until proven guilty? It wasn't broke don't mess with it, and I find it hard to believe that Michigan will pass the likes of Cal, Tex, NY...whoever, in number of scholarships.

If you do not need to give a compelling argument, then guys like you should stop complaining about it multiple times a year? We have talked about this issue a hundred, thousand, million times on this board. I would have never known this was even an issue until guys kept complaining about it. I did not even realize that other states even did this 10 years ago because no one from those states came here *****ing about it. I did live next to a state that claimed playing 6 on 6 Basketball was the best thing and should never change. When they changed after awhile everyone got over it and moved on and get over it. And some of the very same reasons to keep it the same were the reasons you are giving here. There were people that felt it would hurt tradition and what was once special about their state. Now this is a complete non-issue from what I understand.

The change is going to happen whether you are on board or not. This was fought hard in court and it has been decided. And because you felt it was not broke, does not mean many others did not feel it was broke. And I bet everyone will wonder why after a year or two what the big fight was over anyway.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by CoachP

If Michigan was so far behind the times, why are we in the top 5 for girls scholarships in the country for those 2 sports? Maybe all the other states are doing it wrong if all HS sports is about scholarships and revenue....

Several Factors come to mind:

1. Perhaps because that is approximately your position in number of people in the state (actually #8 in 2000).
2. Some of the larger states have better outdoor climates and probably lose participants to other activities that aren't viable in Michigan

Michigan's position in scholarship rankings probably has very little to do with the season it was played in.

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Michigan's position in scholarship rankings probably has very little to do with the season it was played in.

But maybe the number of scholarships were higher because coaches had no other games to scout, since Michigan was the only state playing girls basketball or volleyball at those times. Now, the coaches will have to allocate their time among the various states. Maybe the number of scholarships will go down.

BTW, I have no stake in this and I don't really care when they play. I just think the state association should be able to set their own schedules without the courts' interference. Imagine if there was a court ruling that required you to work only girls basketball games, or that you couldn't turn down any games assigned to you.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

BTW, I have no stake in this and I don't really care when they play. I just think the state association should be able to set their own schedules without the courts' interference. Imagine if there was a court ruling that required you to work only girls basketball games, or that you couldn't turn down any games assigned to you.

You can imagine, but it is not the same thing. A state association is a tax payer funded institution. Officials work as independent contactors. That means that if we do not like the conditions or the circumstances, we do not have to work under any circumstances. That also means that the people who hire us do not have to provide certain accommodations. We are not air traffic controllers.

Peace

[mick]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

A state association is a tax payer funded institution. Officials work as independent contactors. That means that if we do not like the conditions or the circumstances, we do not have to work under any circumstances. That also means that the people who hire us do not have to provide certain accommodations. We are not air traffic controllers.

Peace

Au contraire.

"A private, non-profit corporation, the MHSAA receives no tax dollars from the state of Michigan or the federal government. Its membership, made up of public, private and parochial schools, pay no membership dues or tournament entry fees — the only one of two such associations nationally to not accept membership dues or tournament entry fees from schools." - from mhsaa.com

[JRutledge]

Public schools are members if the MHSAA right? If that is the case and an organization that is made up of public schools (who receive tax money to function), the activities of the MHSAA is part of tax base that funds them. And if I am not mistaken, I saw the basketball championships held on Michigan State's campus. That is a publicly funded university and that means the MHSAA does not do things without public institutions.

In my state the IHSA currently does not take dues from the members, but they run tournaments and use public facilities to run those tournaments. If the state legislature wanted to take some legal action against them for discrimination and other legal codes, they would have a legal basis (and this almost happen over a multiplier issue last year). It does not mean that would ever happen, but they could do that.

Peace

[mick]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Public schools are members if the MHSAA right? If that is the case and an organization that is made up of public schools (who receive tax money to function), the activities of the MHSAA is part of tax base that funds them. And if I am not mistaken, I saw the basketball championships held on Michigan State's campus. That is a publicly funded university and that means the MHSAA does not do things without public institutions.

In my state the IHSA currently does not take dues from the members, but they run tournaments and use public facilities to run those tournaments. If the state legislature wanted to take some legal action against them for discrimination and other legal codes, they would have a legal basis (and this almost happen over a multiplier issue last year). It does not mean that would ever happen, but they could do that.

Peace

Just sayin', Rut,
Breaking laws is one thing.
Being taxpayer funded is quite another.