Michigan joins the rest of us

[bgtg19]

I live and officiate in Michigan. It is my opinion that the lawsuit was wrongly decided by a judge who did not, and does not, understand the purpose of high school athletics.

Having said that, the woe-is-me lines I have heard from many in my state are wearing thin. We'll adjust and we'll be just fine. As Rut pointed out, it's not like Michigan has any fewer gyms than high schools in other states. Now the boys and girls basketball teams will have to share gym time? I suppose if the girls volleyball teams were practicing out in the snow, that might take a bigger adjustment, but it turns out that volleyball practices take place ... wait for it ... in a gym. I don't think the concerns about lack of quality officials are legitimate either. In my area, we've all received our assignments and the assignors are not pulling out their hair about any shortages. Assignors around here have insisted that if you want to work boys games you'll work girls games, too (and vice versa). So, for good or for ill, boys and girls will have the same "quality."

Parenting has taught me that "equality" does not mean "sameness." And, even though Michigan's sport seasons are now the "same" for boys and girls, we still have work to do (as most every state and area do) before we reach the desired and deserved equality. The lawsuit was a crutch, and a poor one at that. But where our feet take us now that we're done with the crutches is up to us.

[JRutledge]

I think I have a very good understanding of High School Athletics. What is so great about having two different seasons for the players? Also keep in mind that the rest of the country plays basketball at the same time for both genders. What is the benefit? All I have heard was official's shortage and gym space (which are problems around the country). Are the girl's getting more volleyball scholarships?

Peace

[bgtg19]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I think I have a very good understanding of High School Athletics. *** Are the girl's getting more volleyball scholarships?

I do not at all question your "very good understanding of High School Athletics." However, if you think your final question is probative, then I do question how well you understand the purpose of high school athletics.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by bgtg19

the purpose of high school athletics.

The purpose of high school athletics is to provide a venue for parents who have failed in their prior sporting endeavors to live vicariously through their children's accomplishments. That's why the amount of importance put on high school athletics is grossly out of proportion to academic achievement.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bgtg19

I do not at all question your "very good understanding of High School Athletics." However, if you think your final question is probative, then I do question how well you understand the purpose of high school athletics.

Stop being evasive. Just say that the reason guys like you dislike this change is because it makes you have to work more games in a shorter period of time. If you are unwilling to be candid about why this was a benefit when the rest of the country then I question your knowledge of high school sports. High School sports have been operating the with girl's and boy's basketball being played at the very same season for years with no major problems. I see no benefit to have the girl's play a different season, none which so ever. And maybe it was arguments like yours that made the judge say things need to change. I just wanted a candid explanation that made sense. It is clear there was no argument but you were afraid of change because it has always been that way.

Peace

[bgtg19]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Stop being evasive. Just say that the reason guys like you dislike this change is because it makes you have to work more games in a shorter period of time. If you are unwilling to be candid about why this was a benefit when the rest of the country then I question your knowledge of high school sports. High School sports have been operating the with girl's and boy's basketball being played at the very same season for years with no major problems. I see no benefit to have the girl's play a different season, none which so ever. And maybe it was arguments like yours that made the judge say things need to change. I just wanted a candid explanation that made sense. It is clear there was no argument but you were afraid of change because it has always been that way.

Peace

Whatever, man. You make so many assumptions. I personally prefer having the boys and girls both play basketball in the same season. More than 80% of Michigan schools, and more than 70% of Michigan high school female athletes, preferred things the way they were. Just because the change benefits me personally does not mean the lawsuit was correctly decided.

I am not wishing to be "evasive," but I do not have the time or inclination to try to educate you on this point. If you truly are interested -- if you truly have NO idea why there might be some benefit to high school athletes in having separate seasons, then feel free to peruse the Michigan High School Athletic Association website (www.mhsaa.com) archives. (Some of the "explanations," as I earlier indicated, I disagree with -- e.g., shortage of facilities and officials -- not everything the MHSAA put out should be taken as the Gospel.)

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I see no benefit to have the girl's play a different season, none which so ever.
Peace

When you get outside of the bigger schools (Mich uses classes based on enrollment A-B-C-D) is where all the problems lie.

Most of the larger A schools and "some" B schools have gym sizes to accomodate everybody but that is not the norm.

With most schools there are 2 V teams 2 jv teams and 2 freshman hoops teams with even an A and B team on some freshman boys teams. All these teams need games and practices in the same gym all week.

Volleyball normally filled up their game schedules with a week night and all day Saturday tourneys/invites. So they only required (a lot of times) one night a week for games. And one BBall court holds 2 VB courts for practices which for a lot of rural schools is V and JV only. So their practice scheduling was much easier....And they managed to play dozens more matches than other states because of the longer season.

Girls had a great benefit playing hoops on Tue and Thurs in the fall as they did not have to compete with boys sports (friday night football)
Girls VB will enjoy some of that benefit now except for the saturday part (college football coverage)

My biggest gripe is they passed it off as a gender equity suit so volleyball would match the rest of the country....which btw 10 years ago 8 other states played GBB/Fall GVB winter.

[Adam]

Just for perspective. The school I grew up in had one gym. This gym somehow accomodated Varsity and JV boys, Varsity and JV girls, and middle school boys and girls. It can be done. MS practiced in the am before school. Boys and girls both combined their jv and varsity practices (small schools have smaller teams and can do this). They rotated one team practicing at 3:30 and the other team practicing at 5:30.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by CoachP

When you get outside of the bigger schools (Mich uses classes based on enrollment A-B-C-D) is where all the problems lie.

Most of the larger A schools and "some" B schools have gym sizes to accomodate everybody but that is not the norm.

With most schools there are 2 V teams 2 jv teams and 2 freshman hoops teams with even an A and B team on some freshman boys teams. All these teams need games and practices in the same gym all week.

This is no different than in my state and I am sure in other states. Now the bigger schools might have a Sophomore A, B and C team and a Freshman A, B and sometimes C teams. So that is a Varsity team, JV team (varsity players with a couple of non-varsity players), 2 or 3 sophomore teams and 2 or 3 freshman teams. This is almost never an issue with the bigger schools because they have a field house (3 or 4 courts just in the field house) along with a main gym.

I started officiating in rural Illinois and you were lucky if a school had 3 teams per gender. Everyone had a varsity team and a sophomore team, but freshman teams were not always a constant because there were not enough kids to fill those teams. The way I understand this was most gyms have the multiple hoop gyms (courts running sideways through the main court) and that would be how a lot of practices would be run. The girls would practice and one time and the boys would practice at another time. They way it was done is one would practice right after school and the other might practice later that evening. This of course included when both teams were around. When the season started and one team had to go on the road, this was not the same issue.

I am not talking multiple gyms. I am talking a very small school with one gym for everything. Most of the schools in my state do not have over 1000 kids in the high school. And in some case the HS is the same building that the JH is located and they have to share the gym with those kids where many games at those levels are also played during a portion of the HS season.

Originally Posted by CoachP

Volleyball normally filled up their game schedules with a week night and all day Saturday tourneys/invites. So they only required (a lot of times) one night a week for games. And one BBall court holds 2 VB courts for practices which for a lot of rural schools is V and JV only. So their practice scheduling was much easier....And they managed to play dozens more matches than other states because of the longer season.

Girls had a great benefit playing hoops on Tue and Thurs in the fall as they did not have to compete with boys sports (friday night football)
Girls VB will enjoy some of that benefit now except for the saturday part (college football coverage)

You say that the girl's would have the benefit of their own nights. In my state they do not play girl's and boy's games on the same night most of the time. Girls usually play on Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday afternoon throughout the state and they start a week earlier (Week before Thanksgiving) and the playoffs start a couple of weeks before the boys playoffs do. Boys usually play on Tuesday, Friday and Saturday and they start a week later (Thanksgiving week). There are not many schools or conferences that even try to play varsity contests on the same night. Now it is no secret that the boys usually get the bigger crowds and the bigger attention (unless the girl’s team is a state power). I do not think moving the season would help that. Just like you do not get a lot of volleyball attendance, I am sure nothing would change in this state.

Originally Posted by CoachP

My biggest gripe is they passed it off as a gender equity suit so volleyball would match the rest of the country....which btw 10 years ago 8 other states played GBB/Fall GVB winter.

That was 10 years ago. There was obviously a reason they changed. Change is not always bad thing. I thought the issue was about scholarships and playing in the normal season for college recruiters? Maybe the lack of defense of these issues is the very reason the lawsuit was successful and now there is change. If you ask me gym space and playing in their very own season is not a very good reason. It appears the Judge felt the same way. I can see how a female basketball player or soccer player might be hurt if a college has to make a special trip or change their schedule to recruit a player from Michigan. Now this might not be that big of a deal Midwestern colleges, but for the bigger programs in volleyball are mostly on the west coast and I am sure it was inconvenient at best for many of those programs to come out to Michigan (or any other state that had this change) during an "off season" to recruit. I am not under the impression that volleyball is like basketball where it is played year round across the country (I am sure there are exceptions).

I equate this issue as what is happening here. Our state has had 2 classes for 30 years. Now the IHSA is going to 4 classes. Now I personally do not like it, but the change is here. There is nothing we can do about it now and many of the arguments to keep the 2 class system are minimal. The rest of the country has more than 2 classes and in some cases 5 and 6 classes. People gave similar arguments that it would change greatly affect the balance of competition and would change why people attended games. The more I think of it what I was holding on to was tradition because it was always done that way. I am sure we will get over it just like everyone else has had to deal with it.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bgtg19

Whatever, man. You make so many assumptions. I personally prefer having the boys and girls both play basketball in the same season. More than 80% of Michigan schools, and more than 70% of Michigan high school female athletes, preferred things the way they were. Just because the change benefits me personally does not mean the lawsuit was correctly decided.

Of course they did. That is all they know. If we use that argument and change the topic there are a lot of things those females would not be able to because that is the way they were raised.

Originally Posted by bgtg19

I am not wishing to be "evasive," but I do not have the time or inclination to try to educate you on this point. If you truly are interested -- if you truly have NO idea why there might be some benefit to high school athletes in having separate seasons, then feel free to peruse the Michigan High School Athletic Association website (www.mhsaa.com) archives. (Some of the "explanations," as I earlier indicated, I disagree with -- e.g., shortage of facilities and officials -- not everything the MHSAA put out should be taken as the Gospel.)

I did not ask you to give me every single angle to this argument. But the fact that you cannot or you are unwilling to talk about the issue speaks volumes. Like Snaq said, I grew up in a small HS and we had one main gym and we made it work. Sorry that this discussion is way too over your head. I asked the question because I was waiting for something compelling to say this is the reason Michigan should stay this way. I am also a native Michigander so this issue has always fascinated me.

Peace

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That was 10 years ago. There was obviously a reason they changed. Change is not always bad thing. I thought the issue was about scholarships and playing in the normal season for college recruiters? Maybe the lack of defense of these issues is the very reason the lawsuit was successful and now there is change. If you ask me gym space and playing in their very own season is not a very good reason. It appears the Judge felt the same way.

Michigan was ranked 4 and 5 for GBB and GVB scholarships out of 50 states. If it was about scholarships, any judge could have seen that stat and threw the case outta the window.

Bottom line, 2 parents of VB players were upset because their daughters needed to make the varsity squad as a freshman so they could be seen by College VB coaches by their junior season because other states players were being recruited at different (earlier) times. These mom's lawyers wrapped this up in a gender equity suit, called it a Title IX issue, highlighted a bunch of sports where boys and girls played at different seasons and sued crying GENDER EQUITY!!!TITLE IX !!!. Said boys and girls should be equally advantaged or disadvantaged when it comes to sports seasons. The MHSAA lost.

The MHSAA compliance plan rotated a bunch of sports so boys/girls golf, Tennis, soccer, what have you, were all in the same season or arranged it so all the boys and girls were either equally advantaged or disadvantaged.

This did not sit well with the moms and lawyers because GBB/GVB remained the same. That's when it got ugly for 4 more years of appeals and such.

Basically all the moms were after was getting VB to the fall so they could start their precious club ball at the same time as other states.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I equate this issue as what is happening here. Our state has had 2 classes for 30 years. Now the IHSA is going to 4 classes.
Peace

Apples and oranges Jeff. JMO

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Just for perspective. The school I grew up in had one gym. This gym somehow accomodated Varsity and JV boys, Varsity and JV girls, and middle school boys and girls. It can be done. MS practiced in the am before school. Boys and girls both combined their jv and varsity practices (small schools have smaller teams and can do this). They rotated one team practicing at 3:30 and the other team practicing at 5:30.

I never had this problem in HS. I went before basketball was invented.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by CoachP

The MHSAA compliance plan rotated a bunch of sports so boys/girls golf, Tennis, soccer, what have you, were all in the same season or arranged it so all the boys and girls were either equally advantaged or disadvantaged.

You said my example was apples and oranges, so is this example. Golf, tennis and soccer are not revenue college sports or revenue sports at the HS level either. If you need to know golf, tennis and soccer are all played in the fall or spring depending on gender. I am sure this is done on the either side to prevent taking kids away from the major sports.

I believe Lacrosse plays both genders at that same time. After all these sports you mentioned are outdoor sports and it would be very hard to move these sports to the winter in the Midwest. We all know that football, basketball and baseball/softball are king. The other sports would have little participation if you moved those sports to other times.

Originally Posted by CoachP

This did not sit well with the moms and lawyers because GBB/GVB remained the same. That's when it got ugly for 4 more years of appeals and such.

Basically all the moms were after was getting VB to the fall so they could start their precious club ball at the same time as other states.

It is changing, now what? The bottom line the sky is not falling and you will adjust and get used to it like everyone else. All these other issues that you keep bring up are not very good reasons to keep girl's basketball in the fall. If the rest of the country is not having an issue with this, why is Michigan so behind the times on this? All I am hearing is little sarcastic comments about why the lawsuit was really brought. I just wanted to hear a compelling argument for things to stay the same. If all you can come up with are shots on Title IX and the motives behind the lawsuit that explains why this lawsuit was successful.

Peace

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by CoachP

Bottom line, 2 parents of VB players were upset because their daughters needed to make the varsity squad as a freshman so they could be seen by College VB coaches by their junior season because other states players were being recruited at different (earlier) times.

Basically all the moms were after was getting VB to the fall so they could start their precious club ball at the same time as other states.

Apples and oranges Jeff. JMO

I was gonna say that the whole be seen by their junior year was not right. The vast majority of VB schloarships are taken care of at Club tourneys. Been doing VB for a couple of years and have never heard of a college coach in the house at a HS match. Go to a club tourney and they are all over the place.

The precious club mommies are not that different then other parents. Why don't they play AAU BB in the winter for HS age kids ?

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I just wanted to hear a compelling argument for things to stay the same.

I don't think you change things because there's no compelling reason to stay the same. I think you change things because they're broken.

From the evidence, this wasn't broken (evidently Michigan girls did not trail other states in scholarships) but the courts decided otherwise.