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-   -   Stick 'em or not? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/36963-stick-em-not.html)

Adam Fri Jul 27, 2007 05:30pm
Whack him. I don't do verbal counts on this, regardless. I might make my visual count a little exaggerated, but it's not going to be audible.

The T becomes easy and simple when he adds "what's your problem." I would have answered him differently after the game, though. That comment might lead to other problems if your assigner isn't so understanding. Then again, it's wreck league; thus making the T easier and the comment more acceptable. :) Well done.

Oh, and yes, I agree with JR that jeffpea's advice is, well, not optimal.

TimTaylor Fri Jul 27, 2007 05:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Whack him. I don't do verbal counts on this, regardless. I might make my visual count a little exaggerated, but it's not going to be audible.

The T becomes easy and simple when he adds "what's your problem." I would have answered him differently after the game, though. That comment might lead to other problems if your assigner isn't so understanding. Then again, it's wreck league; thus making the T easier and the comment more acceptable. :) Well done.

Oh, and yes, I agree with JR that jeffpea's advice is, well, not optimal.
I agree on all points. Only thing I'd really stay away from would have been the post game reply to the player - best not to give them anything at all to work with, just walk away.

Mark Dexter Fri Jul 27, 2007 06:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town
After the game nincompoop ran up and asked me if the team that I wanted to win had won?
I told him YES they sure did now go home :)
If there were any games left for this team, I'd have T'd him up again and ejected him. If he wants to be a moron, let him pay the price and sit out a game or two.

Mark Padgett Fri Jul 27, 2007 06:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Are you serious? You're going to <b>deliberately</b> ignore a rule just to get back at a player? Un-freaking-believable. That concept is right out of the Old School book of rec league officiating.

We're officials. We don't play games with the rules to make a point. Calling a "T" on this play is a judgment call. Calling a violation that <b>ISN'T</b> a violation just to get back at a player is never the way to go. That's just wrong. No wonder our damn integrity gets questioned if some officials are out there pulling this kinda crap.

Terrible, terrible advice imo. I'm sure that 95% of the experienced officials on this forum will agree with me too.
Yeah - but how do you really feel? :rolleyes:

Mountaineer Fri Jul 27, 2007 07:51pm
It was the second part of the comment that would have drawn the T from me. Especially since he turned and yelled at me and everyone heard it.

Jurassic Referee Fri Jul 27, 2007 08:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
Yeah - but how do you really feel? :rolleyes:
:D

It was kind of weird advice anyway. The player didn't say anything until <b>after</b> the timeout request was granted. How could you possibly go back at that time and call a retroactive 5-second violation instead? Now, if the player said it <b>during</b> the count, it might be different. But not different enough to justify making up your own rules.

Imo you just follow the rules that you have. You have a legitimate and legal TO request. There's no reason not to grant it. After that, any response to the player yakking is predicated by the tolerance level of the official. You can ignore it, warn the player or call the "T"-- your choice. If you want to penalize the player, fine, then go ahead and do so. Do it correctly by the rules though. There's no need to play games.

JMHO....

JugglingReferee Sat Jul 28, 2007 07:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town
I'm the lead with under 20 seconds remaining in a win or go home ballgame, Team B scores to cut Team A's lead to 1.
Team A doesn't attempt to pick up the ball (at their dispossal) for a throw-in (clock is still running). I thought that I was being very generous in giving a verbal "one" to make Team A aware that I'm indeed counting & not having the stalling tactics.
A1 requests & is granted a time out (4.5 on my count). Instead of being thankful for the verbal "one" count, A1 (on his way to the bench) turns around and shouts "You can't start counting until we pick up the ball, what's your problem"?

Now, I've trained myself to have selective hearing & have learned to ignore stupid comments. But wait a minute... is this guy really yelling at ME for helping him twice (could've easily counted silently & visually also could've ignored the time-out & went with 5 seconds).

I know if I stick him, Team B could make up to 6 points & Team A loses the ballgame on a stupid technical foul.

Besides NOT giving the verbal "one" count, what would you all have done?
A1 shouted this at you? As in a whole bunch of others heard it too? Whack! Easy call.

I have no problem with "ONE....". The only other thing you can do is say, "I'm still counting..." but only after you start to count.

jeffpea Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town
I don't know about you but NOBODY shouts at me on my wood.

Ego? You lost me, but thanks for chiming in.
The first line in your quote above is EXACTLY what I'm talking about when I say "get over your ego".....Those who have big ego's always seem to "bring a gun to a knife fight" - iow, they tend to pass out a tech. whenever their ego is challenged.

Sometimes you've got to take your medicine as a result of the situation that you've helped to create.

Scrapper1 Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffpea
Sometimes you've got to take your medicine as a result of the situation that you've helped to create.
I agree with that, but this situation was not created by the official. The official correctly started a count and correctly granted a time-out request before the violation. In this case, if some know-it-all player wants to hand out some medicine (loudly and in front of the whole crowd), he probably should have it shoved back down his own throat.

Mountaineer Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffpea
The first line in your quote above is EXACTLY what I'm talking about when I say "get over your ego".....Those who have big ego's always seem to "bring a gun to a knife fight" - iow, they tend to pass out a tech. whenever their ego is challenged.

Sometimes you've got to take your medicine as a result of the situation that you've helped to create.
So, you'd allow the player to yell at you AND ignore a legal TO reqest? If that had happened I'm sure there would have been even more people yelling at you. If you wouldn't have whacked the kid for this - what would it take to deserve a T? You cannot let your knowledge of game situation control what you should and should not call. You have to take care of business. You can't let this outburst slide by.

Jurassic Referee Sat Jul 28, 2007 02:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffpea
Sometimes you've got to take your medicine as a result of the situation that you've helped to <font color = red>create</font>.
That's exactly the point that I was trying to make, Jeff. I don't have a problem with your personal opinion as to what the <b>reaction</b> should be to a player yapping. I certainly don't agree with you but everybody does have different tolerance levels. However, if you start making phantom violation/foul calls, etc. as an alternative to reacting according to the options laid out in the rules, then you're <b>creating</b> you own mess. You deserve everything that you subsequently get because <b>you</b> caused the problems.

Brad Thu Aug 09, 2007 02:57pm
This is a summer league, so he's definitely getting whacked!!

Regular season / playoff game I might use discretion because the reality is that the focus of the end of the game is now going to be on us. It would definitely be addressed one way or another though.

The Canuck Sun Aug 12, 2007 02:34am
If they're ignoring the ball after a made basket, TWEET with a delay of game warning. "I've got a delay of game warning against Team A. Let's keep it moving boys, next time will be a T." If A players are within earshot, in a quieter voice, "I don't want to have to call a T this late in a close game."

Now we've stopped the game and will resume where we left off... a throw-in for team A behind the end line, administered by the officials, and therefore, with a count. Seems to me that's a preventative way of dealing with it, and personally I try to be preventative.

You shout at a ref, you get stuck. Doesn't matter who was right or wrong or what the ref did to trigger it. The great thing about our profession is that we have a whistle, and as such, even if we're wrong, we're right.

Jurassic Referee Sun Aug 12, 2007 05:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Canuck
!) If they're ignoring the ball after a made basket, TWEET with a delay of game warning. "I've got a delay of game warning against Team A.

2) Now we've stopped the game and will resume where we left off... a throw-in for team A behind the end line, administered by the officials, and therefore, with a count. Seems to me that's a preventative way of dealing with it, and personally I try to be preventative.
1) Can you cite a rule, NFHS or NCAA, that will allow you to do that?

2) If they're ignoring the ball after a made basket, the current rules already authorize you to start a count. Iow, the rules that we already have direct us on how to handle the situation.

It's always a good idea to just follow the rules as written without making up new ones.

Of course, if you answered using FIBA rules, please ignore the above. You should always specify which ruleset that you're using to answer. We usually assume that FED or NCAA rules are being used.

Adam Sun Aug 12, 2007 03:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Canuck
If they're ignoring the ball after a made basket, TWEET with a delay of game warning. "I've got a delay of game warning against Team A. Let's keep it moving boys, next time will be a T." If A players are within earshot, in a quieter voice, "I don't want to have to call a T this late in a close game."

Now we've stopped the game and will resume where we left off... a throw-in for team A behind the end line, administered by the officials, and therefore, with a count. Seems to me that's a preventative way of dealing with it, and personally I try to be preventative.
Can you tell me how this is preventative? You're preventing, what, a 5 second violation? With a delay of game warning that isn't in the rule book? Good grief, there's no need to make stuff up here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Canuck
You shout at a ref, you get stuck. Doesn't matter who was right or wrong or what the ref did to trigger it. The great thing about our profession is that we have a whistle, and as such, even if we're wrong, we're right.
I disagree, the great thing about our profession is when some of us start making rules up, there's generally someone to hold us accountable.


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