New Rule

[Adam]

So you're using an NBA rule to back up your statement that you can guess (that's what it is, whether you admit it or not)? They don't guess in the NBA, they have a monitor for this. Even if you have a monitor in a fed game, you can't use it. Nice try, but it doesn't help you justify guessing on how much time is left.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So you're using an NBA rule to back up your statement that you can guess (that's what it is, whether you admit it or not)? They don't guess in the NBA, they have a monitor for this. Even if you have a monitor in a fed game, you can't use it. Nice try, but it doesn't help you justify guessing on how much time is left.

No, the rule is quite specific.

Originally Posted by Old School

However, Rule 5 Section 3a Each period ends when time expires
Exception (2) If the officials whistle sounds prior to the horn or 00:0 on the game clock, the period is not over and time must be added to the clock.

Time must be added back. I consider that normal, Fed. did the adnormal and went with the game is over. Why does this not surprise me? The type of people that supports this are not into making it better, but making it more complicated.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

No, the rule is quite specific.

Time must be added back. I consider that normal, Fed. did the adnormal and went with the game is over. Why does this not surprise me? The type of people that supports this are not into making it better, but making it more complicated.

Actually, the FED made it easier, since they can't have monitors to aid. Also, remember, the FED rule is still held over from when there was a lag time element. If a second or less ticked off the clock after the official blew his whistle, by rule, the official couldn't correct it. Now, with the removal of lag time, we can correct it. However, we can only correct based on what we actually see run off the clock.
This way, there's no guess work involved, and the rule is there to back us up.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Actually, the FED made it easier,

Here's where we going to have to disagree. It is not easier, perhaps more complicated but that's a matter of opinion.

Also, remember, the FED rule is still held over from when there was a lag time element. If a second or less ticked off the clock after the official blew his whistle, by rule, the official couldn't correct it.

Incorrect again, you really need to get your facts straight before you post. You guys get on me, perhaps you need to take a step back. You could always, and this has never changed, you could always with definte knowledge add time or remove time from the clock. Now we can debate what is definite knowledge. If i know I blew my whistle before the final horn sounded. Is that considered definite knowledge?

Now, with the removal of lag time, we can correct it. However, we can only correct based on what we actually see run off the clock. This way, there's no guess work involved, and the rule is there to back us up.

And if this is the case, this is where Fed. when stupid again. There rules are setup like we are children and must be told what to do and how to do it. I understand better the issue now, thanks Snaqs, but I still disagree with the conclusion. Fed. doesn't check their logic for criterism before issuing a new rule. The clock could run down to zero, or a home team staff member could just let the clock run, and the game be in the balance, and we're out there breaking up a fight, get the dust settle, there's no time left on the clock and
nothing by rule we can do about it. If i'm understanding you correctly, they took away my ability to apply logic or common sense to a timing situation. They also, if I'm understanding you correctly, don't want me making a judgment call in this situation. That's stupid and does not stand up to criterism. What a joke.....

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

Here's where we going to have to disagree. It is not easier, perhaps more complicated but that's a matter of opinion.

It's easier because there's no judgment involved. It may not fit "common sense", but in order to ensure uniformity of rule application, it's not as objectionable as you make it out to be.

Originally Posted by Me

Also, remember, the FED rule is still held over from when there was a lag time element. If a second or less ticked off the clock after the official blew his whistle, by rule, the official couldn't correct it.

Originally Posted by Old School

Incorrect again, you really need to get your facts straight before you post. You guys get on me, perhaps you need to take a step back. You could always, and this has never changed, you could always with definte knowledge add time or remove time from the clock. Now we can debate what is definite knowledge. If i know I blew my whistle before the final horn sounded. Is that considered definite knowledge?

Before you start telling me I'm wrong about a rule, you really should check with a rules book. My statement is correct.

The FED had a "lag time" rule that stated, explicitly, that the timer is given 1 second to stop the clock following an official's whistle. Anything less than that is not considered a timer's error, and only timer's errors can be corrected by the officials. Before this season, if an official blew his whistle at .9 seconds and the clock ran out; time expired.

Originally Posted by Old School

And if this is the case, this is where Fed. when stupid again. There rules are setup like we are children and must be told what to do and how to do it. I understand better the issue now, thanks Snaqs, but I still disagree with the conclusion.

You can disagree with the logic, the philosophy, or the wisdom of the rule (Lord knows I can sympathize with this on other rules); but you can't really disagree with the conclusion. It's pretty simple and clear, without room for judgment.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The FED had a "lag time" rule that stated, explicitly, that the timer is given 1 second to stop the clock following an official's whistle. Anything less than that is not considered a timer's error, and only timer's errors can be corrected by the officials. Before this season, if an official blew his whistle at .9 seconds and the clock ran out; time expired.

Well, if you're a candy a$$ bookworm official, you could say that nothing illegal or timer mistake has happen and the game is over. However, my point is, even before the rule change, if there is .9 or .09 seconds left and I blow the whistle and observed time remaining and the clock goes to 0. Yes, there is a lag time of one second but I could always put the .9 back on. Definite knowledge. This is where your arguement is wrong. You assume that the rule change last year gave us the ability to now do this. Well, again you are wrong. We could always do this, lag time or not. The rule change this past season was moot to me.

If i have definite knowledge and it is different than what the time now reads. I now have a timer mistake. The timer may not have done anything wrong, it's just the clock is displaying the wrong time. Get this, whenever I go to adjust the current time, it means the timer has made a mistake. Just like if i go over your house and i see my stolen TV, I taken it with me. Doesn't mean you actually stole it, but the TV coming back home with me. Get it.....!!!!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

Well, if you're a candy a$$ bookworm official, you could say that nothing illegal or timer mistake has happen and the game is over. However, my point is, even before the rule change, if there is .9 or .09 seconds left and I blow the whistle and observed time remaining and the clock goes to 0. Yes, there is a lag time of one second but I could always put the .9 back on. Definite knowledge.

Again, you have definite knowledge, but there's no error so you couldn't, by rule, make that change previously.

Originally Posted by Old School

This is where your argue?ment is wrong. You assume that the rule change last year gave us the ability to now do this. Well, again you are wrong. We could always do this, lag time or not. The rule change this past season was moot to me.

My argument isn't flawed. Your reasoning is. Most officials actually care about enforcing the rules as written. Obviously, there are exceptions. Tim Donaghy, Old School, etc. The rule change wasn't "moot" to those who actually know the rules.

And no, I'm not saying the rule change gave us the ability to do it, it gave us the authority. It's obvious that rogue officials have ability to do a lot of things they don't have authority to do. I can tell you, however, that prior to the rule change, if a HS official put .9 seconds back on the clock at the end of the game and the outcome changed as a result; he'd have been relegated to officiating under wreck wrules.

Originally Posted by Old School

If i have definite knowledge and it is different than what the time now reads. I now have a timer mistake. The timer may not have done anything wrong, it's just the clock is displaying the wrong time. Get this, whenever I go to adjust the current time, it means the timer has made a mistake.

I get what you're saying. I'm only telling you that, by rule, you're wrong. What's comical to the rest of us here is that no only do you no know this; but you admittedly don't care that you're wrong. Instead of being grateful for having the correct rule pointed out to you, you dig your heals in and pound the podium harder.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

Well, if you're a candy a$$ bookworm official, you could say that nothing illegal or timer mistake has happen and the game is over. However, my point is, even before the rule change, if there is .9 or .09 seconds left and I blow the whistle and observed time remaining and the clock goes to 0. Yes, there is a lag time of one second but I could always put the .9 back on. Definite knowledge. This is where your arguement is wrong. You assume that the rule change last year gave us the ability to now do this. Well, again you are wrong. We could always do this, lag time or not. The rule change this past season was moot to me.

It was moot to you because you didn't damnwell know or understand the old rule either. You sureashell couldn't put 0.9 seconds back on the clock. The timer was allowed 1 full second of normal reaction time to stop the clock. That means that the candy-azz bookworm officials would be right in calling the game over, but recleague morons who don't own rule books or understand the rules would put 0.9 seconds back up on the clock.

Here's 2 excerpts from the 2005-06 case book re: the old rule;

1) Casebook play 5.10.1SitB-COMMENT--"Timing mistakes which may be corrected are limited to those that result from the timer's neglect to start or stop the clock as specified by the rules. The rules do NOT permit the referee to correct situations resulting in normal reaction time of the timer which results in a "lag" in stopping the clock. By interpretation, "lag or reaction" time is limited to one second when the official's signal was heard and/or seen clearly.

2) Casebook play 5.10.1SitD(b)--"As the official calls a three-second lane violation, he/she properly sounds the whistle and gives the signal to stop the clock. While doing so, the official is able to see the EXACT time remaining in the fourth quarter. The clock shows 5 seconds remaining. The timer stops the clock at 4 seconds.
RULING: There has been no obvious timing mistake. The timer should be able to react and stop the clock in one second when the whistle is heard and/or the signal is seen.
-Iow, 4 seconds stays up on the clock.

You don't know the old rules. You don't know the new rules. Why post?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Old School

Well, if you're a candy a$$ bookworm official, you could say that nothing illegal or timer mistake has happen and the game is over. However, my point is, even before the rule change, if there is .9 or .09 seconds left and I blow the whistle and observed time remaining and the clock goes to 0. Yes, there is a lag time of one second but I could always put the .9 back on. Definite knowledge. This is where your arguement is wrong. You assume that the rule change last year gave us the ability to now do this. Well, again you are wrong. We could always do this, lag time or not. The rule change this past season was moot to me.

If i have definite knowledge and it is different than what the time now reads. I now have a timer mistake. The timer may not have done anything wrong, it's just the clock is displaying the wrong time. Get this, whenever I go to adjust the current time, it means the timer has made a mistake. Just like if i go over your house and i see my stolen TV, I taken it with me. Doesn't mean you actually stole it, but the TV coming back home with me. Get it.....!!!!

This is why almost everyone here is against you. You are calling people names when they quote you the rules. You also admit you do not know, and do not follow the rules. That makes you disservice to all the newer officials and coaches that look at this site for advice. That is also, above all else, unfair to the players. And the players are the most important aspect. It is totally unfair to them if you call the game using rules and philosophies that are different than the rules used by the other officials, because then the players do not know what to expect. If you are the only official in your league, and you work every game, then great, the players know what to expect; call it however you see fit.

Up until now I have shown restraint and a great deal of patience, but now I too am joining the ranks in calling for your account to be pulled. You do not offer any value to most discussions, you have been shown to be wrong in a majority of your statements, you resort to name-calling when you have been shown to be wrong, and you show very little in real communication skills. If your intent is to learn from this site, it would be better for you to sit back and just listen. If your intent is to show off your vast officiating skills, you have missed by a wide margin. If your intent is to become a joke, you have succeeded by a wide margin.

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by Old School

Fed. doesn't check their logic for criterism before issuing a new rule. ....

Thats why they have those critters all over the place!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by CoachP

Thats why they have those critters all over the place!

Don't know about where you folks are from, but criterism is illegal around these parts.
Or is that criterfilia?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Don't know about where you folks are from, but criterism is illegal around these parts.
Or is that criterfilia?

(I feel a picture showing date night in Wyoming coming on...)

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Don't know about where you folks are from, but criterism is illegal around these parts.

Well, that's only in the Fed and NCAA rulesets. I'm not sure about FIBA. But OS is very clear that NBA took criterism carefully into account when they made their rules. Let's just be sure we keep being clear about which rules we're discussing!