New Rule

[Old School]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

But the ball isn't dead when the whistle blows, the ball is already dead on the violation. (I looked it up over lunch - Basketball Rule Fundamental #16.) I'm just saying it doesn't matter when the whistle blows, or when the clock starts and stops, there is no amount of time that should legally run off the clock in this situation. The clock should be stopped when it's in the hands of the player throwing it in, it should still be stopped when it's released, it should be stopped while the ball is flying through the air, (following me so far?), and since the kicking violation now happens before the throw-in ends, the clock should have never started. So maybe the timer started it because they weren't sure it was a legal or illegal touch (they're doing their job), but we get to stop and correct the time taken off because we have definite knowledge the clock shouldn't have started in the first place.

So, are you saying in my previous example, where the ball goes OOB with 3 sec. left, and because I'm sneezing and coughing and can't get the whistle blown, my partners and I can't correct that? Even though we saw the ball hit OOB with 3 sec. left, time runs out only because i couldn't get the whistle blown?

The NBA addresses this, which is why i like reading all the codes. The clock must run for at least .003 tenths (not sure of exact #) of a second when starting and stopping. And before you go there, you can't call a violation on a dead ball.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

My hand was up (i.e., the stop-the-clock signal), so we're resetting the clock to 3 seconds.

Oh, that's why you had it up - I thought you were just asking to go to the bathroom.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

.

Anyway, didn't the timer make a mistake by starting the clock after a violation occured?

Um, no. The timer followed the direction of NFHS rule 5-9-4.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Old School

The NBA addresses this, which is why i like reading all the codes. The clock must run for at least .003 tenths (not sure of exact #) of a second when starting and stopping. And before you go there, you can't call a violation on a dead ball.

Humor me OS... Is the ball live or dead during the the throw-in (FED)?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Um, no. The timer followed the direction of NFHS rule 5-9-4.

Yes, I understand the wording, and the fact that it doesn't include the distinction between legal and illegal touching. Are you also saying we cannot change the time back at all, even with definite knowledge that the clock should not have started?

Going back to my earlier example, the timer cannot stop the clock without a signal from the official, per 5-8-1(c). So, if, for whatever reason, I never get my whistle blown on the OOB, and the timer doesn't stop the clock, we can't go back and reset the clock to 3 seconds, even though we all know it touched OOB at 3 sec.? By rule, it would not be a timer's mistake. Also, let's say the timer does stop the clock, even though the whistle did not blow. Are you saying that would be a timer's mistake, and that we would be forced to take the remaining time off anyway?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

1) Yes, I understand the wording, and the fact that it doesn't include the distinction between legal and illegal touching. Are you also saying we cannot change the time back at all, even with definite knowledge that the clock should not have started?

2) Going back to my earlier example, the timer cannot stop the clock without a signal from the official, per 5-8-1(c). So, if, for whatever reason, I never get my whistle blown on the OOB, and the timer doesn't stop the clock, we can't go back and reset the clock to 3 seconds, even though we all know it touched OOB at 3 sec.? By rule, it would not be a timer's mistake. Also, let's say the timer does stop the clock, even though the whistle did not blow. Are you saying that would be a timer's mistake, and that we would be forced to take the remaining time off anyway?

1) The problem still is with the NFHS rules language imo. You can't correct timing unless there actually was a timing mistake made. And according to the current FED language, there wasn't a timing mistake made.

2) You're right, it isn't a timer's mistake. However, it is a situation that is still covered under the language of NFHS rule 5-10-2--i.e. the clock wasn't stopped properly and you had specific knowledge about it....so you can correct it. Note though that you can't use this rule to back up your argument also because on the throw-in being discussed, the clock did start properly.

Of course, the alternative is always just to Old School it. "Taurus excreta cerebrum vincit."

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Of course, the alternative is always just to Old School it.

That's right, why spend so much effort on something so small. We can always, if you have definite knowledge set the clock to whatever. That rule has been around since the beginning of time.

Just Old School it.....

[Old School]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

Humor me OS... Is the ball live or dead during the the throw-in (FED)?

Humor you, okay, look it up yourself!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

The NBA addresses this, which is why i like reading all the codes. The clock must run for at least .003 tenths (not sure of exact #) of a second when starting and stopping. And before you go there, you can't call a violation on a dead ball.

This is too funny, but really? .003 tenths? Now, I'm no math genius, but I'm pretty sure there isn't a clock anywhere in the world not buried in a mountain somewhere that reads time to the .003 tenths of one second.

.0003 second is an awfully precise measurement of time for a basketball game.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

This is too funny, but really? .003 tenths? Now, I'm no math genius, but I'm pretty sure there isn't a clock anywhere in the world not buried in a mountain somewhere that reads time to the .003 tenths of one second.

.0003 second is an awfully precise measurement of time for a basketball game.

Tsk tsk.You just don't have the interlect-ual capacity to understand Old School's reasoning.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Tsk tsk.You just don't have the interlect-ual capacity to understand Old School's reasoning.

Nor do I want it.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) The problem still is with the NFHS rules language imo. You can't correct timing unless there actually was a timing mistake made. And according to the current FED language, there wasn't a timing mistake made.

But what's the intent of 5-9-4? I would've thought it was to allow the timer to start the clock during the relatively mundane throw-ins that happen all the time, where the official just neglects to chop time in. Otherwise, the timer uses 5-9-1, where the clock is started when the official signals time in. In our kicked ball play, if the official never signaled time in, and the clock starts anyway, then wouldn't this be a timer's mistake, per 5-9-1?

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

2) You're right, it isn't a timer's mistake. However, it is a situation that is still covered under the language of NFHS rule 5-10-2--i.e. the clock wasn't stopped properly and you had specific knowledge about it....so you can correct it. Note though that you can't use this rule to back up your argument also because on the throw-in being discussed, the clock did start properly.

Why can't I use it? If the clock should be stopped the instant of the kick, which happens at the same instant of the touching (and starting of the clock), and we have definite knowledge of that fact, then why can't we make that correction? That's been my point; perhaps the timer started the clock on the touch, not knowing whether it's a legal touch, but I'm coming in and saying I have definite knowledge it wasn't stopped properly (the instant it was touched).

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

"Taurus excreta cerebrum vincit."

Are you saying you think some models of Fords are pieces of crap?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Are you saying you think some models of Fords are pieces of crap?

"vescere bracis meis"!

Got that from the Simpsons Movie....or suthin' like that.......

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

1) But what's the intent of 5-9-4? I would've thought it was to allow the timer to start the clock during the relatively mundane throw-ins that happen all the time, where the official just neglects to chop 2) time in. Otherwise, the timer uses 5-9-1, where the clock is started when the official signals time in. In our kicked ball play, if the official never signaled time in, and the clock starts anyway, then wouldn't this be a timer's mistake, per 5-9-1?

2) Why can't I use it? If the clock should be stopped the instant of the kick, which happens at the same instant of the touching (and starting of the clock), and we have definite knowledge of that fact, then why can't we make that correction? That's been my point; perhaps the timer started the clock on the touch, not knowing whether it's a legal touch, but I'm coming in and saying I have definite knowledge it wasn't stopped properly (the instant it was touched).

1) Yup, I'm saying that the current NFHS rules language in R5-9-1&4 explicitly directs the timer to start the clock on the ball touching or being touched by a player on the court. There is no differentiation made, rules-wise, between legal and illegal touching.

2) You can't correct it because there was NO timing mistake made, as per 5-10-1. Because of that, you can't use 5-10-2 because the clock WAS started properly under 5-10-1.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

This is too funny, but really? .003 tenths? Now, I'm no math genius, but I'm pretty sure there isn't a clock anywhere in the world not buried in a mountain somewhere that reads time to the .003 tenths of one second.

.0003 second is an awfully precise measurement of time for a basketball game.

Damn keyboard, you know, one of these days, when I get enough money from all the D1 games I wish I could work. I gonna buy me one of those there intelligent keyboards. You know, the kinds that automatically corrects typing mistakes on the fly..