"star system"

[BBarnaky]

Please excuse my political incorrectness. A 60 person staff. Wouldn't want to offend anybody, by all means. Goodness.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by crew
maybe i take these comments about our fellow officials way too personal.

I mean no offense, Tony, but there's no "maybe" about it. This is not the first time you've been displeased with comments b/c you felt they were too personal; when in fact, nothing personal was ever said. I think you (and also bpf) reacted this same way to some other comments I wrote in a previous thread on a similar topic to this one.

No one -- repeat, NO ONE -- here is saying anything derogatory about NBA officials. Not a word. We are only discussing how the league itself wants the games called, b/c that's exactly how the officials call the games.

To deny that the officials interpret the league's rules to benefit its star players is, I think, not being honest with oneself. Just my opinion.

Chuck

[JRutledge]

Cuban was on PTI on ESPN the other day defending his comments. One of the things that he said I found hilarious was the fact that he thinks that the best officials are not in the NBA and that NCAA officials with more experience should be hired by the NBA to officate the league. But the reality is, if there are better officials in the college ranks, I really do not think that they would even want to do the NBA. The Hightower, Hillary, Higgins and Valentine's of the world probably do not want anything to do with the NBA or never have. He is just like other stupid fans that thinks everyone is fasinated by the NBA. NNNOOOOOTTTTT!!!!!!! You could not get me to do the NBA if they paid me $1,000,000. Well I might have to think about that then, but considering that college officials can make about the same during a season as many NBA officials, I really do not see the appeal.

You can do L.A. Lakers vs. Philadelphia 76ers and it would not be the same from year to year. Duke-North Carolina will always be the same. Even with the fact that North Carolina is not doing that game this year that game is still going to have some kind of magic. L.A. Lakers-Philadelphia might not be the same in 10 years.

But that is just my opinion.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
No one -- repeat, NO ONE -- here is saying anything derogatory about NBA officials. Not a word. We are only discussing how the league itself wants the games called, b/c that's exactly how the officials call the games.

To deny that the officials interpret the league's rules to benefit its star players is, I think, not being honest with oneself. Just my opinion. Chuck

This sis my feeling exactly. Of course, they are the best. And I would never say they are cheaters or dishonest. They do the best they can and that's saying a lot. I just don't like the philosophy that offense gets the breaks, and defense is no fun to watch. I don't enjoy watching NBA because it's too show-offy and there's not enough team work. That's the way other fans (who have more money to throw around than I do) want it, and that's what they get. Fine.

That doesn't mean the stars don't get preferential treatment. They clearly and obviously do. If that's what everyone wants, and what the league agrees on, it's not cheating, and it's not bad.

It's just not for me.

[PublicBJ]

Originally posted by rainmaker
[BI'd love to, but can't find a copy. Do you have one I could borrow?
[/B]

Used copies are available on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671661086/
and
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671759736/

Click on the Used link in the upper right...

[eroe39]

Originally posted by JRutledge
But the reality is, if there are better officials in the college ranks, I really do not think that they would even want to do the NBA. The Hightower, Hillary, Higgins and Valentine's of the world probably do not want anything to do with the NBA or never have. He is just like other stupid fans that thinks everyone is fasinated by the NBA. NNNOOOOOTTTTT!!!!!!! You could not get me to do the NBA if they paid me $1,000,000. Well I might have to think about that then, but considering that college officials can make about the same during a season as many NBA officials, I really do not see the appeal.

Rutledge, Dick Bavetta, and others with his same seniority and playoff status, with bonuses and all makes close to 300,000 a year plus he has a retirement plan waiting for him. John Clougherty and others like him I have heard make around 120,000 a year with no retirement plan. A young college official just starting in D1 might make 20,000 while a rookie in the NBA makes around 90,000. I would hardly say that college officials make about the same. I have not heard of any college officials being asked to work the NBA and turning it down. Valentine was in the NBA program at one time but was never hired. I am not saying that NBA officials are better than the Valentine's, Hillary's, Cloughterty's ect. College and pro basketball are totally different games. I am sure Valentine is a better college official than a Bob Delaney and I am sure Delaney is a better pro official than a Valentine.

[eroe39]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Eli,

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying, honestly. Are you saying that there is no preferential treatment given to the star players? Because if that's what you're saying, then it's been documented to be false. I posted this previously, but maybe you missed it. I believe it was 2 seasons ago, although it may have been 3, an NBA ref got into quite a bit of trouble because he called a foul. The player he called it on complained to him about it. The official said, "I know it was [star player]'s foul. But you only have one, so I gave it to you." This comment was overheard by a player or coach on the other team, who (SURPRISE!) went nuts.

It's a documented fact that the officials try to help the star players stay in the game. It's better for the flow of the game, and better for ratings.

I agree wholeheartedly with your comments about officials conspiring to prolong a series, or to help one team win to get a better matchup in the next round of playoffs. The one thing that I think is true of officials everywhere is that they don't care who wins.

Not trying to pick a fight here, just trying to figure out exactly the point you were making.

Chuck

Chuck, good point about giving a foul to a different player, but I don't believe this makes it a documented fact that start players are given preferential treatment. If Steve Nash goes to the hole and Michael Jordan and Christian Laettner converge on him and both foul him and Jordan has 4 fouls and Laettner has one I would probably give the foul to Laettner as well. I think officials at all levels would do this. Now if Laettner never touched him and the official choose Laettner to give the foul to then I do believe this would be wrong. If the official did this in your above comments I hardly think you can blanket this to the whole staff and say the whole staff gives prefential treatment to stars.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by eroe39


Rutledge, Dick Bavetta, and others with his same seniority and playoff status, with bonuses and all makes close to 300,000 a year plus he has a retirement plan waiting for him. John Clougherty and others like him I have heard make around 120,000 a year with no retirement plan. A young college official just starting in D1 might make 20,000 while a rookie in the NBA makes around 90,000. I would hardly say that college officials make about the same. I have not heard of any college officials being asked to work the NBA and turning it down. Valentine was in the NBA program at one time but was never hired. I am not saying that NBA officials are better than the Valentine's, Hillary's, Cloughterty's ect. College and pro basketball are totally different games. I am sure Valentine is a better college official than a Bob Delaney and I am sure Delaney is a better pro official than a Valentine.

But you are assuming that the money is what is driving them to do it. That my friend is a big mistake. And $300,000 is for the very few. Not every official is going to make that. That is for the officials that stay around for several years. And the John Cloughtery's of the world, have other jobs. And who cares about a retirement plan if you have one of your own. You act like you cannot invest your own money. Bill Gates does not have a retirement plan I am sure, but he has as much money in his portfolio than his yearly salary.

And also, many of the NCAA Officials have other jobs, and do not have the travel schedule that an NBA Official has. How many things do they miss as compared to a D1 official that has more of the year to themselves. And better yet, a Big 10 Official for the most part lives in the Midwest for the most part. They are not travelling all over the country from New York to LA to Miami back to San Antonio all in a week or two. It is alot easier to go to Ann Arbor, then to Madison, then to Bloomington. And as an NBA ref, you might not have a job. So the pool of individuals that would even come close to making that kind of money year in, year out is very slim.

[crew]

Originally posted by JRutledge
[QUOTE

But you are assuming that the money is what is driving them to do it. That my friend is a big mistake. And $300,000 is for the very few. Not every official is going to make that. That is for the officials that stay around for several years. And the John Cloughtery's of the world, have other jobs. And who cares about a retirement plan if you have one of your own. You act like you cannot invest your own money. Bill Gates does not have a retirement plan I am sure, but he has as much money in his portfolio than his yearly salary.

And also, many of the NCAA Officials have other jobs, and do not have the travel schedule that an NBA Official has. How many things do they miss as compared to a D1 official that has more of the year to themselves. And better yet, a Big 10 Official for the most part lives in the Midwest for the most part. They are not travelling all over the country from New York to LA to Miami back to San Antonio all in a week or two. It is alot easier to go to Ann Arbor, then to Madison, then to Bloomington. And as an NBA ref, you might not have a job. So the pool of individuals that would even come close to making that kind of money year in, year out is very slim.

missing the point,
nba officials have little side jobs as well they own resturuants and other businesses as well as working in the nba. bob delaney is a motivational speaker and charges thousands of dollars to companies that want to have him speak. the nba is a full time job and wants its officials to make that their first priority that is why they are paid so well.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by eroe39
I am sure Valentine is a better college official than a Bob Delaney and I am sure Delaney is a better pro official than a Valentine.

I agree with this completely. The NBA guys, as a group, are the best anywhere. Probably, although I wouldn't stake my life on it, a couple of the best college guys are better than a couple of the worst NBA guys. But that doesn't take away from the quality of the NBA officials as a group.

Now if Laettner never touched him and the official choose Laettner to give the foul to then I do believe this would be wrong

Eli, I think this happens every single night. I see it --well, not all the time -- but quite often. And again, this is not a criticism of the officials; it's merely a reflection of how the league does bidness.

Chuck

[JRutledge]

I understand what you are saying, but my original point had nothing to do with money. I think that the fact that Cuban thinks that the best of the best in college want to do NBA games, is really out there. If you are a Big 10 Official, you can be around a lot longer than many of the coaches and defintely the players. You are not going to have to deal with a Luke Reackor (sp?) for 15 years. But if you have been officiating in the NBA for 20 years, you have had to deal with MJ off and on for around 15 years. At least in college it is much more about the name on the front of the jersey and not the one on the back. I would rather be a college ref than be an NBA ref any day. Not because the players are not good, but at least Indiana-Illinois is not going to change that drastically from year to year. But the Bulls-Lakers is going to be completely different from year to year because of free agency and many other factors that.

Rasheed Wallace is not going to respect a guy that makes only a small percentage compared to his yearly salary. At least most of the college players will never play or have a chance in the NBA. How many player Ts do you see during a college season as compared to an NBA season? That plays a big factor for me, I am not sure about everyone else. Money is not everything. And it is not like college officials do not make big money doing other things. Usually they are very well paid at other jobs.

Peace