Under Cutting Players

[Just Curious]

A1 goes up for a shot from the perimeter. B1 goes out head down and fakes taking out A1''s legs with what I'll call under cutting. I have considered this unsportsmanlike and have given T's for it.... I called it tonight. I saw it called in another game a few weeks ago...
The problem I'm having right now is that in both games, the "T" seemed to be a be the turning point of otherwise close games. Both were called early in the last quarter...
What are do you guys and gals think about this kind of call???

[Brian Watson]

So this is a "fake" move to disturb the shooter? Since the action is to cause the shooter to think bodily harm is imminent, why not T them?

If there is a fight, throwing a punch and missing is still flagrant, I see no reason why this cannot be a T. It is not the same as slapping your hands together or yelling BAAALLLLL in my opionion.

[Danvrapp]

I'd say this situation is very similar to when the thrower-in fakes like he's going to whack the kid that's playing defense with the ball. You know the one, where the defender's right in his face.....?

Well, this is just the same, I'd think. The player is acting like (s)he's attempting to intimidate or injure - a T in my book!

[RecRef]

Originally posted by Just Curious

The problem I'm having right now is that in both games, the "T" seemed to be a be the turning point of otherwise close games. Both were called early in the last quarter...
What are do you guys and gals think about this kind of call???

So? You are report that a T took place not to worry about the impact on a game.

Other than boxing. this type of action has no place in sports.

You asked!

[mick]

Originally posted by Just Curious
A1 goes up for a shot from the perimeter. B1 goes out head down and fakes taking out A1''s legs with what I'll call under cutting. I have considered this unsportsmanlike and have given T's for it.... I called it tonight. I saw it called in another game a few weeks ago...
The problem I'm having right now is that in both games, the "T" seemed to be a be the turning point of otherwise close games. Both were called early in the last quarter...
What are do you guys and gals think about this kind of call???

Chuck,
Unsporting conduct is in the eye of the beholder.
I've seen this play happen for 40 years, and I have never considered it even marginally unsporting.
mick

[Bart Tyson]

If i was going to address this, I would talk to the player. I don't beleive i would call a T, certainly not in the last period of a close game.

[zebraman]

I agree w/ Bart. Warn the kid the first time that you'll call a "T" if he/she does it again. Should take care of it.

Z

[Mark Padgett]

At a camp a few years ago, a similar question came up. This may also apply to the inbounder who fakes throwing the ball in the defender's face.

I was told that if an action is faked that, if actually carried out would be a foul, then you should call the T. If the action, if carried out instead of faked, would not be a foul, then it's a no call.

I'm not saying I totally agree with this philosophy, but it is food for thought.

[mick]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
At a camp a few years ago, a similar question came up. This may also apply to the inbounder who fakes throwing the ball in the defender's face.

I was told that if an action is faked that, if actually carried out would be a foul, then you should call the T. If the action, if carried out instead of faked, would not be a foul, then it's a no call.

I'm not saying I totally agree with this philosophy, but it is food for thought.

Mark,
I can see why that is not a rule (ie. the faked action that could be a foul, IF....). Many other defensive actions include feints toward the ball, then back toward another player in order to deceive the ball handler.

A dribbler going hard into the lane sees a feint toward him, then stops and travels. "Well, I thought he was gonna run into me!?!"

I, too, do not totally (or partially for that matter) agree with that philosphy.

mick

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
At a camp a few years ago, a similar question came up. This may also apply to the inbounder who fakes throwing the ball in the defender's face.

I was told that if an action is faked that, if actually carried out would be a foul, then you should call the T. If the action, if carried out instead of faked, would not be a foul, then it's a no call.

I'm not saying I totally agree with this philosophy, but it is food for thought.

So the penalty for pretending to do something is harsher than actually doing it? Doesn't seem fair to me....

[daves]

I would not call it a T either. I agree with the warning idea. If the player continued to do it in spite of the warning, then I might call a T.

[ChuckElias]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oz Referee

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
So the penalty for pretending to do something is harsher than actually doing it? Doesn't seem fair to me....

Oz, seems strange, I know. But in HS rules here, throwing an elbow and missing is a T. Throwing an elbow and connecting is a personal. Go figure.

Chuck

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Oz, seems strange, I know. But in HS rules here, throwing an elbow and missing is a T. Throwing an elbow and connecting is a personal. Go figure.

I have to take issue with the generalization of your post, Chuck. It's a technical foul to sing the elbows excessively with out contact. It's also a technical foul to swing the elbows excessively when contact is made. The T is for swinging the elbows, not for making or failing to make contact.

As for the original play, I have to agree with mick. I am not calling a T in this situation.

It blows my mind that officials are willing to call a T on a player in a situation such as this, but will let a coach eat there @ss all night but never call a T because he didn't "get personal." I don't give me the "kid could get hurt" argument either. He can't possibly get hurt unless there is contact. When contact occurs, call the personal foul.

When the NF tells me to call a foul for this or for faking a pass at a player's head, I'll call it. But until then, the swinging elbows is the only play of this sort that specifically requires a T.

[ChuckElias]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef

I have to take issue with the generalization of your post, Chuck. It's a technical foul to swing the elbows excessively with out contact. It's also a technical foul to swing the elbows excessively when contact is made. The T is for swinging the elbows, not for making or failing to make contact.

I know it's probably dumb to ask this, but are you sure about that, Tony? You're going to call a T when the kid gets hit? I don't think that's the way the rule is interpreted, is it? I don't have my book right now (I haven't unpacked from my game tonight), but if he makes contact it has to be personal, I would think.

It seems to me that using your reasoning, if a defender reached thru the OOB plane and struck the ball while the thrower was holding it, you would only give the warning, b/c he had to break the plane first. But obviously, you're supposed to give the T there.

I'll do some digging in the morning. Off to bed for me now, tho.

Chuck

[BktBallRef]

If he swings his elbows excessively, that's a technical foul. It doesn't matter if he makes contact, as he's already committed an offense that warrants a T by swinging them. You don't ignore the T just because there's contact.

The rule simply says that it's a T even if there isn't contact, as it's an unsporting act. That occurs whether contact is made or not.

Now, I'm off to bed!
zzzzzzz!