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-   -   First Forfeit (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/36412-first-forfeit.html)

Boiler14 Tue Jul 10, 2007 02:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
1) Nothing was going on? :rolleyes: Read NFHS rule 10-5NOTES1 lately? After losing their coaching box privileges, the head coach is not supposed to be on their feet during FT's, unless it's to do some coaching duties that are explicitly laid out in the rules. As far as I can see, b!tching at the officials isn't one of the coaching duties listed. Loss of coaching box privileges applies to free throws.

2) I don't need to be at this situation to have my opinion. Reading about it is enough. I'm a veteran. I wouldn't dream of ever letting a coach get away with that kind of nonsense. She dared you multi-times to follow up on your warnings, and neither you or your partner had the...um...testicular fortitude to stand up to her. Why warn her at all if you're not gonna do anything about it? By your own admission, there was at least SIX warnings given out, and absolutely nothing was done after the first <b>FIVE</b>. No wonder she ignored you. If you didn't follow up on your first bunch of warnings, why would she expect that you'd all-of-a-sudden decide to say "Enuff's enuff".

You wanted comments. You got mine. Sorry, but that's my opinion. I really didn't expect you to like or agree with it.
I don't think I was "wanting" comments. I expect them, but I was just telling a story of something unusual that happened. I'm not offended by anyone wanting to tell me how they would have reacted differently. However, unless you see certain situations play out I don't think everything is black and white as it appears to some.

Look, if we tossed her sooner I don't think we would have had the support of anyone. The super who these teams paid would have thought it was quick. The college coaches watching would have thought the same. Joe Public would have thought we were just there to make a quick buck and we could care less. Not that we're concerned with how things would be perceived, but it is important to have support (especially when you have three games left to do in the same building).

IMO it was better to not overreact but to slow things down and if I have to try to bend over backwards to keep the game going I'll do it...even if it is a fault to some.

Dan_ref Tue Jul 10, 2007 02:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boiler14
The college coaches watching would have thought the same.
I bet those college coaches were wondering why you guys didn't just dispatch her.

They didn't come all that way to see her work on her coaching style.

Boiler14 Tue Jul 10, 2007 02:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
This statement sparked my interest. Not because you simply said it, but you are apart of the crew. When a decision like this is made you need to also take some responsibility for it. Most assignors I know want 3 Referee on the game, not 3 U2s. You should always try to take a leadership role even if you are not assigned the Referee. I will tell you if this decision was made in a real game, you would be held equally responsible. Just because you are a U2 does not mean you cannot offer opinions or even offer. This is another case where we let the rules get in the way of reality.

Peace
We were all in discussion on this. I didn't mean for it to sound like it did. Smiley face didn't do the job, I guess. Reality is that about 30 minutes after the game we realized that rule that the R rules when a game is forfeited. You are absolutely correct. All officials need to be involved when such a decision must be handed down and the rule should probably clarify that.

JRutledge Tue Jul 10, 2007 02:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boiler14
Look, if we tossed her sooner I don't think we would have had the support of anyone. The super who these teams paid would have thought it was quick. The college coaches watching would have thought the same. Joe Public would have thought we were just there to make a quick buck and we could care less. Not that we're concerned with how things would be perceived, but it is important to have support (especially when you have three games left to do in the same building).
There in lies the problem. You should not be worried about what Joe Public thinks at all. They are not the people that have your best interests at heart. Who gives a damn what someone thinks you are there for. And if you would have just T'd her up, everyone would have known these guys are not playing around today. Fans are bias and have agendas. Who cares what they think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boiler14
IMO it was better to not overreact but to slow things down and if I have to try to bend over backwards to keep the game going I'll do it...even if it is a fault to some.
Throwing a coach out is not over-reacting. My partner last night threw out a coach for simply cursing at him in front of his players. We do not have to take that and certainly they are not paying us enough to take that kind of abuse during the summer time.

It sounds to me like you are worried about what others think rather than doing what is right for the game or the situation this coach put you in.

Peace

Boiler14 Tue Jul 10, 2007 02:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
I'm an assignor. I know of very few assignors, if any, that would approve of the way that this situation was handled.

When any coach directly challenges you like this one did, you're gonna have to do something about it. That's part of your job. You can't walk away from that responsibility.
I guess that makes two of us.

I guess I didn't feel challenged because I knew what the result was going to be if she didn't comply. Having said this, I know where you are coming from and agree the job had to be done.

Boiler14 Tue Jul 10, 2007 02:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
There in lies the problem. You should not be worried about what Joe Public thinks at all. They are not the people that have your best interests at heart. Who gives a damn what someone thinks you are there for. And if you would have just T'd her up, everyone would have known these guys are not playing around today. Fans are bias and have agendas. Who cares what they think.



Throwing a coach out is not over-reacting. My partner last night threw out a coach for simply cursing at him in front of his players. We do not have to take that and certainly they are not paying us enough to take that kind of abuse during the summer time.

It sounds to me like you are worried about what others think rather than doing what is right for the game or the situation this coach put you in.

Peace
Since this was my forfeit, as the thread stated, I can't say I thought a whole lot about what others would think. It wasn't until typing this that I even brought the fans into my thinking. The super was really the only true concern I had, but I do know if he didn't give us his support he would have probably been looking for other officials to finish out his tournament.

Jurassic Referee Tue Jul 10, 2007 02:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
There in lies the problem. You should not be worried about what Joe Public thinks at all. They are not the people that have your best interests at heart. Who gives a damn what someone thinks you are there for. And if you would have just T'd her up, everyone would have known these guys are not playing around today. Fans are bias and have agendas. Who cares what they think.

Throwing a coach out is not over-reacting. My partner last night threw out a coach for simply cursing at him in front of his players. We do not have to take that and certainly they are not paying us enough to take that kind of abuse during the summer time.

It sounds to me like you are worried about what others think rather than doing what is right for the game or the situation this coach put you in.
Well, that saves me some writing....:)

What he said.

Jurassic Referee Tue Jul 10, 2007 02:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
I bet those college coaches were wondering why you guys didn't just dispatch her.

They didn't come all that way to see her work on her coaching style.
True dat too.

Boiler14 Tue Jul 10, 2007 02:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
I bet those college coaches were wondering why you guys didn't just dispatch her.
They didn't come all that way to see her work on her coaching style.
We actually had to pass them after the game was over. One looked at us and said, "You guys tried." I thought that was a good summary of the whole ordeal.

Look, reality is this is a situation that is not very likely to happen in school ball. Too many people would get the coach out of the gym so the game can continue. AAU is its own beast. Those of you who do rec and summer league have stated that too. When teams pay to play they think the rules are different. We know they aren't and that sometimes creates the problems for these types of games.

Dan_ref Tue Jul 10, 2007 02:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boiler14
We actually had to pass them after the game was over. One looked at us and said, "You guys tried." I thought that was a good summary of the whole ordeal.

Look, reality is this is a situation that is not very likely to happen in school ball. Too many people would get the coach out of the gym so the game can continue. AAU is its own beast. Those of you who do rec and summer league have stated that too. When teams pay to play they think the rules are different. We know they aren't and that sometimes creates the problems for these types of games.
I do my fair share of AAU. If an assignor doesn't like the way I handle the games they don't ask me back. Every summer I turn down more than I take.

btw, I don't agree that what amounts to "nice try" is a ringing endorsement.

Jurassic Referee Tue Jul 10, 2007 02:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boiler14
Look, reality is this is a situation that is not very likely to happen in school ball. Too many people would get the coach out of the gym so the game can continue. AAU is its own beast. Those of you who do rec and summer league have stated that too. When teams pay to play they think the rules are different. We know they aren't and that sometimes creates the problems for these types of games.
Boiler, it's not a matter of any official being hard-azzed or anything like that. The point that some of us are trying to get across is simply trying to explain what a warning, any warning, actually <b>is</b>. You tell somebody that what they are doing will not be tolerated. You then explain what the consequences will be if they fail to listen to that warning. Now, if you fail to follow up with the consequences, then there was no use at all in issuing that warning in the first place. Nobody is looking for or wants to get into a coach/official confrontation. If you do get into one though, it should be handled quickly and decisively.

Just wanted to make that clear. Summer or rec league ball is no different imo when it comes to having to keep the games under control.

It's like telling your 2-year old "I really, really mean it this time". They know when you're not serious.:)

blindzebra Tue Jul 10, 2007 03:50pm
How much better would it have been if you did things the way the mechanics and rules tell us to do it?

Coach gets T.

You tell her she lost her right to stand and walk away.

At this point she chases you continuing to yell, at which point everyone in the gym sees a professional official and an out of control coach.

If that wasn't the second T, by the time the ball was to be put in play after the FTs, she had better be sitting...if not, calmly turn, whistle and whack.

At this point she knows she is ejected, and if she doesn't start leaving immediately, again you calmly tell the table, loud enough for her to hear, "Give me a minute and if she's still here, that's ball game."

You get away from the table and watch the players and benches, until she either complies or the minute is up.

KingTripleJump Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:46am
After reading all of these replies, I still have one question.


What university did she play for? :D

Boiler14 Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingTripleJump
After reading all of these replies, I still have one question.


What university did she play for? :D
UCONN her freshman year. I don't know what year but I'm guessing around 10 years ago give or take a year.

rainmaker Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:38am
Just for the record, Boiler, I think you probably did a fine job. I'm also accused of talking too much, and I"m sure I have done so in the past, but there are times when talking more than less is the right thing to do. You sound like you had a pretty clear picture of the expectations in your situation, and that you did the best you could to handle it. Your assignor is the one you needed to please, and you did. I think that's enough said right there.


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