First Forfeit
 

Officiated for 20 years and we had to do the unthinkable Sunday. I was doing an AAU tourney that was used mostly for college coaches to get a look at some players.

This coach is fairly young and she played her freshman year at a national powerhouse D1 school before transferring. The team she actually had at this tourney was her high school team she coaches.

Here is the scene: Her team is up 23-17 with 1:30 to go in the first half. Fouls are 11 to 7, but they are against her.

I am the C as FT's are being administered to the other team. My partner is getting an ear full from her. She is complaining that we have called 40 fouls (honest...she used this number twice) and this isn't a free throw tournament. She goes on about all of this and my partner says enough, puts out the "stop sign" and she continues.

My parnter T's her up after the second FT is completed. He then tells her kindly you must be seated. I heard her tell him she isn't going to.

I traded positions with him so he can get away. He tells me as I'm passing "she will be seated". I tell her she has to be seated and she tells me she isn't going to. This goes on a couple times. Now I'm getting the same story my partner got about this is not a FT tourney, we raised a lot of money doing car washes to come here, etc. Oh...and we have called 40 fouls, too.

I told her you will have to take a seat before we throw the ball in or you will be getting a second T. She wants me to go get the tourney supervisor which I tell her I am not doing, but she is more than happy to go if she wishes. She is not going to go and insist I do. I remind her what will happen if she gets the second T and she tells me she won't leave. Finally the second FT ends and I look at her assistant (who is her father and hasn't said one word this whole time) and asked if he was going to help me here. He ignored me. I looked at my partner at the division line with the ball and say, "Okay then."

Now she gets #2 and has to leave.

But...she is not going. So, I hand it to the lead who now has to hear it all. The only difference is he was nice enough to go get the supervisor. While he's gone my other partner and myself remove ourselves from near the bench. The opposing coach comes to us and asks us what we are going to do. My partner says we really don't want to forfeit the game because it isn't fair to the girls of both team, but especially his. He told us he was fine with it if she didn't leave. (This was a loser bracket game and both teams were only going to play one more game win or lose).

Well, one of the supers comes in and tells her that she has to leave. She said I'll sit, but she wasn't leaving. I piped in with that option has come and gone. The super gives her one minute and she doesn't start leaving until we say "ball game". Once again...too late on her part.

As an aside, her father finally spoke. Once the supervisor got there he came up to the three of us and wanted to tell us about ''all his years of being around basketball and ...........". I kindly cut him off and said you had your chance to speak and you didn't help the situation at all so go sit down.

It was a classic case of defiance you expect from your toddlers.

Her biggest complaint about the T's was she never used any profanity.:confused:

This from a coach who was LEADING.

I was the U2 so I had no role in the decision to forfeit. That was the R who served the first T.:D

Well, let's count them up.....

According to #'s 1 to 5 above, you and your partner collectively gave the coach <b>SIX</b> warnings before you did anything about it. <b>SIX WARNINGS!</b> The coach basically told you to go f**k yourself after each of those <b>SIX</b> warnings. Finally, she gets the second technical foul that she should have got way back after the first warning, the second warning for sure. So......now she goes ahead and does exactly what she told you she was going to do. She refuses to leave. And your R <b>still</b> refuses to take care of bidness. You had to go get the site supervisor to do your job for you.

Sorry, but you collectively let that coach get away with bloody murder. The R literally ran away from his responsibilities. Not a good job at all imo. The R was looking for excuses not to do what he was being paid to do..control the game.

<b>Six</b> warnings?:rolleyes:

I agree with JR, you played around with her and gave her too many warnings. 1 warning, possibly 2 then be finished with her. T her up and send her or the game in your case on its way.

Sounds about like how I would have handled it. I didn't read anything in your post that would have drawn an immediate T from me, either for the first one or the second (though #2 was close). She was given enough time to calm down and end the spectacle. When it was clear she would not comply, a forfeit is all you had left.

Glad it was you and not me! :)

I don't want to pile on but I agree with JR also. Entirely too much talking.

Hmmm....I really wasn't expecting to defend our actions. I was just telling a story of something unusual that happened.

I really wasn't counting up "warnings". Nothing was going on except FT's being shot so the game wasn't being delayed. She was told to stop the first time and didn't. I told her she had to sit before the ball was put back in play and didn't. Yes...I may have told her she had to sit down a few times, but there was no need to whack her until play was ready to resume. That is just my opinion in this case.

I don't think the coach got away with "bloody murder"....or any felony. She never yelled, stomped, cried, cussed...or listened to instructions, which was her downfall. Trust me, if she was throwing a fit like it must have been implied things would have happened much quicker.

I guess this just tells me that unless you are actually at the situation you really can't assume you would do anything different. Putting things in words doesn't tell you what the emotion (or lack thereof) of any situation described and that is an important element.

I say this sincerely because I really can't imagine many other veterans would have dumped her much quicker based on what happened. We gave her ample time to comply (without delaying the game) which is alot better than quick trigger in my book.

1) Nothing was going on? :rolleyes: Read NFHS rule 10-5NOTES1 lately? After losing their coaching box privileges, the head coach is not supposed to be on their feet during FT's, unless it's to do some coaching duties that are explicitly laid out in the rules. As far as I can see, b!tching at the officials isn't one of the coaching duties listed. Loss of coaching box privileges applies to free throws.

2) I don't need to be at this situation to have my opinion. Reading about it is enough. I'm a veteran. I wouldn't dream of ever letting a coach get away with that kind of nonsense. She dared you multi-times to follow up on your warnings, and neither you or your partner had the...um...testicular fortitude to stand up to her. Why warn her at all if you're not gonna do anything about it? By your own admission, there was at least SIX warnings given out, and absolutely nothing was done after the first <b>FIVE</b>. No wonder she ignored you. If you didn't follow up on your first bunch of warnings, why would she expect that you'd all-of-a-sudden decide to say "Enuff's enuff".

You wanted comments. You got mine. Sorry, but that's my opinion. I really didn't expect you to like or agree with it.

This statement sparked my interest. Not because you simply said it, but you are apart of the crew. When a decision like this is made you need to also take some responsibility for it. Most assignors I know want 3 Referee on the game, not 3 U2s. You should always try to take a leadership role even if you are not assigned the Referee. I will tell you if this decision was made in a real game, you would be held equally responsible. Just because you are a U2 does not mean you cannot offer opinions or even offer. This is another case where we let the rules get in the way of reality.

Peace

One thing I have used in the past at "rec" games to get results from reluctant coaches after their first T is to tell them that if they don't knock it off, they will be ejected, we will end the game and tell all the kids the reason they can't play any more basketball today is because that coach couldn't behave themselves and to be sure to tell their parents how they feel about that.

Of course, this doesn't have real "teeth" if they have an assistant who can take over.

I think the situation was handled just fine. You were trying to do everything you could do to avoid a forfeit. I just got done working one of those big invitational tournaments where there were dozens of college coaches watching the games to plan their recruiting. The last thing you want is to have a forfeit when you've got coaches who have travelled from all over the country to watch these kids play. That's what it's all about - and the assignors certainly don't want you to declare a forfeit unless you've done everything you can do to avoid it.

It's easy to point fingers and say you'd do it differently when you weren't there. I know it would be a tough spot and it was unfortunate that it had to overshadow the game.

I think you are missing the point. No one said the forfeit was not warranted. People are saying that the amount of warnings and passing on bad behavior might have lead to the over all situation. I agree that summer or off season games we try to be a little more tolerant. Even in a camp setting, I know the campers want to see action taken when coaches behave out of control.

Peace

Maybe, just maybe, if you popped her as soon as she refused to sit down the first time, she'd have known you were serious about the whole "You gotta leave" thing and she'd have left.

Maybe not. :)

I'm an assignor. I know of very few assignors, if any, that would approve of the way that this situation was handled.

When any coach directly challenges you like this one did, you're gonna have to do something about it. That's part of your job. You can't walk away from that responsibility.

True dat.<i></i>

I'm thinking the coaches know why their players are at these exposure things just as the officials do and they are at least as obligated as we are to keep the games moving so the coaches can see their players.

In the OP's sitch I read that this coach decided to create a confrontation between her and the officials. How best to deal with that? You can talk to her and take all sorts of stupid behavior and be the nice guy. Me? I would have banged her a second time after she made it plain she refused to sit down and let her assistant take over. The game would have stopped until she left and I would have made it clear to both benches and the table what we're waiting for.

And no one forfeits anything.

I don't think I was "wanting" comments. I expect them, but I was just telling a story of something unusual that happened. I'm not offended by anyone wanting to tell me how they would have reacted differently. However, unless you see certain situations play out I don't think everything is black and white as it appears to some.

Look, if we tossed her sooner I don't think we would have had the support of anyone. The super who these teams paid would have thought it was quick. The college coaches watching would have thought the same. Joe Public would have thought we were just there to make a quick buck and we could care less. Not that we're concerned with how things would be perceived, but it is important to have support (especially when you have three games left to do in the same building).

IMO it was better to not overreact but to slow things down and if I have to try to bend over backwards to keep the game going I'll do it...even if it is a fault to some.

I bet those college coaches were wondering why you guys didn't just dispatch her.

They didn't come all that way to see her work on her coaching style.

We were all in discussion on this. I didn't mean for it to sound like it did. Smiley face didn't do the job, I guess. Reality is that about 30 minutes after the game we realized that rule that the R rules when a game is forfeited. You are absolutely correct. All officials need to be involved when such a decision must be handed down and the rule should probably clarify that.

There in lies the problem. You should not be worried about what Joe Public thinks at all. They are not the people that have your best interests at heart. Who gives a damn what someone thinks you are there for. And if you would have just T'd her up, everyone would have known these guys are not playing around today. Fans are bias and have agendas. Who cares what they think.

Throwing a coach out is not over-reacting. My partner last night threw out a coach for simply cursing at him in front of his players. We do not have to take that and certainly they are not paying us enough to take that kind of abuse during the summer time.

It sounds to me like you are worried about what others think rather than doing what is right for the game or the situation this coach put you in.

Peace

I guess that makes two of us.

I guess I didn't feel challenged because I knew what the result was going to be if she didn't comply. Having said this, I know where you are coming from and agree the job had to be done.

Since this was my forfeit, as the thread stated, I can't say I thought a whole lot about what others would think. It wasn't until typing this that I even brought the fans into my thinking. The super was really the only true concern I had, but I do know if he didn't give us his support he would have probably been looking for other officials to finish out his tournament.

Well, that saves me some writing....:)

What he said.

True dat too.

We actually had to pass them after the game was over. One looked at us and said, "You guys tried." I thought that was a good summary of the whole ordeal.

Look, reality is this is a situation that is not very likely to happen in school ball. Too many people would get the coach out of the gym so the game can continue. AAU is its own beast. Those of you who do rec and summer league have stated that too. When teams pay to play they think the rules are different. We know they aren't and that sometimes creates the problems for these types of games.

I do my fair share of AAU. If an assignor doesn't like the way I handle the games they don't ask me back. Every summer I turn down more than I take.

btw, I don't agree that what amounts to "nice try" is a ringing endorsement.

Boiler, it's not a matter of any official being hard-azzed or anything like that. The point that some of us are trying to get across is simply trying to explain what a warning, any warning, actually <b>is</b>. You tell somebody that what they are doing will not be tolerated. You then explain what the consequences will be if they fail to listen to that warning. Now, if you fail to follow up with the consequences, then there was no use at all in issuing that warning in the first place. Nobody is looking for or wants to get into a coach/official confrontation. If you do get into one though, it should be handled quickly and decisively.

Just wanted to make that clear. Summer or rec league ball is no different imo when it comes to having to keep the games under control.

It's like telling your 2-year old "I really, really mean it this time". They know when you're not serious.:)

How much better would it have been if you did things the way the mechanics and rules tell us to do it?

Coach gets T.

You tell her she lost her right to stand and walk away.

At this point she chases you continuing to yell, at which point everyone in the gym sees a professional official and an out of control coach.

If that wasn't the second T, by the time the ball was to be put in play after the FTs, she had better be sitting...if not, calmly turn, whistle and whack.

At this point she knows she is ejected, and if she doesn't start leaving immediately, again you calmly tell the table, loud enough for her to hear, "Give me a minute and if she's still here, that's ball game."

You get away from the table and watch the players and benches, until she either complies or the minute is up.

After reading all of these replies, I still have one question.


What university did she play for? :D

UCONN her freshman year. I don't know what year but I'm guessing around 10 years ago give or take a year.

Just for the record, Boiler, I think you probably did a fine job. I'm also accused of talking too much, and I"m sure I have done so in the past, but there are times when talking more than less is the right thing to do. You sound like you had a pretty clear picture of the expectations in your situation, and that you did the best you could to handle it. Your assignor is the one you needed to please, and you did. I think that's enough said right there.

Thanks for the support and to the others who thought it was handled well.

Also, thanks to those (seriously) who thought things could have been handled differently.

There are times after some games that we say, "I wish I handled that differently." This was not one of those instances, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't have been one.