How late is too late??

[sj]

Last night in a high school summer league I had a play that I don't think I've had happen before. At least the way it did. I'm trail. A1 is dribbling parallel to the free throw line when B1 comes up on him and bumps him a little. It throws him a bit off his path and sort of turns A1 around so he is going to start to dribble back the other way. At this point I had nothing. A1 had not been trying to go around B1 or anything. The bump caused him a little trouble but it just wasn't enough to call and it looked like he was recovering just fine. However B2 came streaking up the lane and stole the ball clean as A1 was turning back the other way. He went in and made an easy layup.

I would bet that 99% of refs would leave the bump, in and of itself, alone just like I did. But then it turned bad. In actuality A1 was still recovering from what little contact there was. He was going to be fine and I have no problem thinking that at that point I had done the right thing. But A1 was definitely still in a recovery process as the ball was stolen. When the ball was stolen I just froze knowing that I had a problem as I had not seen him coming. I didn't blow my whistle because by the time I got unfrozen B2 was long gone. I think I should have gone ahead and called it even though it would have looked "late."

So maybe a good question to ask here is, using fanboy terminology,.....how late is too late?

[Rusty Gilbert]

We all struggle with what contact is illegal, and what contact is incidental. Sometimes we have to wait a moment and determine the consequences of the contact.

The general rule is to penalize contact that negatively affects a player's speed, quickness, balance and/or rhythm. The contact in this case that "sort of turns A1 around so he is going to start to dribble back the other way" sounds like the kind of contact that may be worthy of a whistle all by itself irregardless of the consequences.

There is also a principle "don't pass on illegal contact that creates a violation, foul, or turnover. Go back and get the illegal contact." (And then keep the response, "You're right, coach. It is a late whistle, but it was still a foul.") The fact that the contact made the steal possible just reinforces that it was illegal. Not blowing the whistle rewarded an illegal defensive play.

[rainmaker]

Too late is too late. It's a tough call, and no doubt about it. I'd say in your situation, once the dribbler had turned, it was too late.

The trick to getting this call right is A1's "ability to play through". Sounds like there was the ability there, and B2 just took advantage of a "fumble". Whether or not to have called the bump originally would probably depend on the level of play, and the overall style of the game, and what else was being called. You probably got it right by not calling it.

[rainmaker]

I finished my response, and then read Rusty's. Funny that they're the exact opposite!! It just shows that there's lots and lots of judgment involved, and each situation is different. If I were you, I'd keep watching other refs games, and keep adding to your data bank. See how others call this amount of contact at the same level, in similar situations. Work on developing the instincts that might give you an automatic response that you can feel good about.

[Rusty Gilbert]

ditto rainmaker's last post.....

[truerookie]

[QUOTE=Rusty Gilbert] irregardless .. <

I agree with the with what you stated.

[sj]

The contact in this case that "sort of turns A1 around so he is going to start to dribble back the other way" sounds like the kind of contact that may be worthy of a whistle all by itself irregardless of the consequences.

***You could be right. What I had was though was a kid who took a little bump , it sort of turned him and he just went with it by just going with the flow.

There is also a principle "don't pass on illegal contact that creates a violation, foul, or turnover. Go back and get the illegal contact." (And then keep the response, "You're right, coach. It is a late whistle, but it was still a foul.") The fact that the contact made the steal possible just reinforces that it was illegal. Not blowing the whistle rewarded an illegal defensive play.

***That's what I thought after as well. I think if I had seen B2 coming in for the steal I could have seen what was going to happen and gone ahead and blown my whistle before the steal even occurred. I actually do recall blowing whistles like that before. But I agree with you I should have got it.

[M&M Guy]

How late is too late?

Next week.

Seriously, having a patient whistle is a good thing. It allows you to see the whole play and its' consequences. If you see a bump, and the player plays through it and gets past the defender, there may not be a need to blow the whistle. I saw that play happen at camp this past weekend - A1 got bumped on a drive about the free throw line, made it past the defender, and went in for an easy layup. The coach asked the official why they didn't call the foul, and the official replied, "Do you want me to wipe off the basket and give you the ball out-of-bounds instead?" You could see the light bulb go on in the coach's head.

Granted, maybe there is a time that would be too late, such as the next quarter. "Gee, coach, I didn't realize you were going to be this far behind, so I decided to give you that foul back at the 3 minute mark of the first quarter"... In your play however, if you blew the whistle after the steal, I would perhaps sell it a little more, but it's still an easier explanation that the call was a little late, rather than trying to explain not making the call at all.

[sj]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

You probably got it right by not calling it.

****I like your attitude. : > ) Although in hindsight I should have called it. I was going to get grief from one coach or the other so that was a wash but the steal surprised me as I didn't see him coming in to steal the ball. As I ran past Coach A he asked,...wasn't he bumped? I was busy running down with the layup but by the time I came back past him I realized what had happened and told him that I should have called it. But you live and learn.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by sj

I was busy running down with the layup but by the time I came back past him I realized what had happened and told him that I should have called it. But you live and learn.

You answered your own question.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You answered your own question.

Ok, so should he have blown his whistle at that time and called the foul?

And, should the resulting layup count, or should he wipe that off?

I think the question isn't whether or not it was a foul, but once he realizes it should've been called a foul, how long can you wait before calling it?

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Ok, so should he have blown his whistle at that time and called the foul?

And, should the resulting layup count, or should he wipe that off?

I think the question isn't whether or not it was a foul, but once he realizes it should've been called a foul, how long can you wait before calling it?

Before the player that stole the ball gets more than two dribbles away.

I dunno...it's going to look ugly either way. He was late on a foul call...does he want to compound the problem by letting the opposing team benefit TWICE because of the original non-call?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Ok, so should he have blown his whistle at that time and called the foul?

And, should the resulting layup count, or should he wipe that off?

I think the question isn't whether or not it was a foul, but once he realizes it should've been called a foul, how long can you wait before calling it?

I didn't see the play; he did. If, after thinking about it, he thinks that he should have called a foul, then he should have called it. From his original description, it sureasheck sounds like a foul should have been called. If the dribbler gets bumped off his path and also turned around at the same time, that is not incidental contact.

If the subsequent steal was fairly close to the original contact, you can come in with a late whistle and explain it away fairly easily. If the player hasn't recovered his balance yet from the bump, as he said in the op, then it certainly ain't too late. Call it as soon as the ball is stolen.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I didn't see the play; he did. If, after thinking about it, he thinks that he should have called a foul, then he should have called it. From his original description, it sureasheck sounds like a foul should have been called. If the dribbler gets bumped off his path and also turned around at the same time, that is not incidental contact.

If the subsequent steal was fairly close to the original contact, you can come in with a late whistle and explain it away fairly easily. If the player hasn't recovered his balance yet from the bump, as he said in the op, then it certainly ain't too late. Call it as soon as the ball is stolen.

I agree; I was just trying to be a little bit of a smart-a$$.

I know I've had that brain-locked condition where you see the play, and think to yourself, "Someone should call something"; then you realize you're the one that should be calling something. So how much time should elapse before you just say, ok, now it's too late? I agree as soon as the ball is stolen is still ok. I also agree once the ball is stolen and the other team lays it in, that's too late. Does anyone have any "rule of thumb" as to when is it really too late to come in with a foul call? 2 steps? 2 seconds?

[refin1]

speed, rhythm and control. If any of those three are interupted, it's a foul