Originally Posted by All_Heart

If the shot is not released before the horn BUT there is a foul before the horn then the shot should count because the clock should have stopped with the horn.

If a foul took place (in this situation with the ball in the hands of the airborne shooter) then there has to be time on the clock because if the foul occured at 00.0 then it would have to be intentional or flagarant in order for there to be free throws.

I'm not trying to mess around with it. I was suprised by the rules and case plays that JR produced. I'm trying to understand why we would not put time back on the clock and count the basket. Hasn't this been discussed before? I tried searching the archives but couldn't find it.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What timing error?

In this play, the timer stopped the clock properly as soon as he recognized the foul call. While stopping the clock, time ran out and the horn ended the period. There's no timing error to correct.

If you blow your whistle for a second, do you think that you should put a second back on the clock to account for the time between the beginning and end of your whistle blow? Don't think so. It's not practical.

You fix errors. This isn't an error.

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

There is no more lag time or reaction time. That's over, gone, history. He no longer gets 1 second to stop the clock.

Originally Posted by All_Heart

I had always thought that you had to have time on the clock when shooting free throws but I was proven wrong this weekend.

Sequence:

- A1 is in the act of shooting.
- Releases shot.
- Time expires and horn sounds.
- Before shooter returns to floor B1 fouls A1.

Ruling: Free throws are awarded with 0.00 on the clock. (If at the end of the game then free throws are shot only if it can affect the outcome.)


2nd Sequence:I have always thought of this sequence which caused me to think that there had to be time on the clock if shooting free throws:

- A1 is in the act of shooting.
- B1 Fouls A1.
- A split second later time expires and the horn sounds.
- A1 releases shot and it goes in.

Ruling: Count the basket. Put time back on the clock (0.1 seconds if its so close you aren't sure). Shoot 1 free throw.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Say what?:confused:

No, you can't count the basket and put time back on the clock. The horn went and the period ended with the ball still in the shooter's hands. The rules that I cited say that you can't adjust anything. AAMOF the NCAA AR couldn't be more explicit.

You and All_Heart are confusing a timing <b>"mistake"</b> with normal reaction time to stop the clock. The rules allow you to correct a <b>mistake</b>. This <b>isn't</b> a <b>mistake</b>. The clock was stopped properly.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You're talking about a timing error too.

See NFHS rule 5-6-2EXCEPTION2:--"If a held ball or violation occurs so near the expiration of time that the timer cannot get the clock stopped before time expires, the quarter or extra period ends with the held ball or violation."

The NCAA rule is exactly the same, and they also added the AR to make sure that you rule the same way for the situation when the ball is still in the shooter's hands when the horn goes off. If you don't add time for a held ball or violation, why would you add time for a foul under the exact same circumstances?

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

But again, I ask, how much time are you allowing him to stop the clock before you consider it an error?

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

1) He hasn't answered because he can't.

2) A shooter fouled before the horn gets to complete the shooting motion. Since the clock is stopped at the foul/whistle, it can't legally expire.

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

But again, I ask, how much time are you allowing him to stop the clock before you consider it an error?

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

This play being discussed isn't an <b>error</b> <i>per se</i> though.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

If I see the clock move after the whistle, it's an error. If the horn sounds very close to the whistle and I don't have time to check the clock, then I don't have definite knowledge, and will not correct it even if it might be an error. But if I see it move after my whistle, then it's error and we're going to fix it.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

A shooter fouled before the horn gets to complete the shooting motion. Since the clock is stopped at the foul/whistle, it can't legally expire.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

That determination is made for each and every play. It sureasheck doesn't hold for all plays. If I feel that the timer was slow stopping the clock, and I have definite information that will allow me to adjust the clock, then I'll adjust the clock. If I feel that the whistle and horn were almost simultaneous, then the only thing that I have have to make a judgment on is whether the ball was still in the shooter's hands when the horn went. I can't put any time back on the clock when there isn't a timing error. If you think that I can, please cite a rule that will back your contention up.

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Not to sound ugly but I don't work NCAA rules, nor have I read any of the discussion regarding NCAA rules. They don't apply to NFHS situations. Therefore, I can't explain it to you one way or another. Nor do I care what it says. :)

Originally Posted by All_Heart

Hasn't this been discussed before? I tried searching the archives but couldn't find it.