Free Throws with 0.00 showing on the clock...
 

I had always thought that you had to have time on the clock when shooting free throws but I was proven wrong this weekend.

Sequence:

- A1 is in the act of shooting.
- Releases shot.
- Time expires and horn sounds.
- Before shooter returns to floor B1 fouls A1.

Ruling: Free throws are awarded with 0.00 on the clock. (If at the end of the game then free throws are shot only if it can affect the outcome.)


2nd Sequence:I have always thought of this sequence which caused me to think that there had to be time on the clock if shooting free throws:

- A1 is in the act of shooting.
- B1 Fouls A1.
- A split second later time expires and the horn sounds.
- A1 releases shot and it goes in.

Ruling: Count the basket. Put time back on the clock (0.1 seconds if its so close you aren't sure). Shoot 1 free throw.

Do you have a rules reference for that second situation????

You may want to check this one out. It's wrong.

- if the ball is still in A1's hands when the horn goes to end a period, the ball is dead. No basket.
- A1 will shoot 2 FT's with the lanes cleared.
-There is no time put back on the clock.

The NCAA cite is rule 5-7-3(c) and AR121. NFHS rule is 6-7-7EXCEPTION.

I didn't ask you, ya old poop!!:D

I removed the extra parts of A.R.121 to make it easier to read.

WOW, I'm not following the logic of these rulings. Please help me to understand. :confused:

This is the way I see it.

The timer should have stopped the clock when the foul occured so time would never have expired. We have definite knowledge that the foul occured before the horn. So we have definite knowledge that at least .01 seconds should be put on the clock. Why would we not put .01 on the clock, count the basket and shoot 1 free throw??

I guess I'm not following your logic...if the shot is not released before the horn, it can't count. Period. If you are trying to play the "put a split second back on the clock" game - don't...if the horn is that close to the whistle for the foul, don't try to mess around with it.

If the shot is not released before the horn BUT there is a foul before the horn then the shot should count because the clock should have stopped with the horn.

If a foul took place (in this situation with the ball in the hands of the airborne shooter) then there has to be time on the clock because if the foul occured at 00.0 then it would have to be intentional or flagarant in order for there to be free throws.

I'm not trying to mess around with it. I was suprised by the rules and case plays that JR produced. I'm trying to understand why we would not put time back on the clock and count the basket. Hasn't this been discussed before? I tried searching the archives but couldn't find it.

if you have definite knowledge of how much time should be put back on the clock, then you can put it back on, count the basket, and shoot the appropriate free throws. Time hasn't expired, so you that's why you can count the basket. If you don't have definite knowledge, then you can't count the bucket since time officially expired prior to the release of the shot. Shoot the appropriate free throws with no time on the clock.

Say what?:confused:

No, you can't count the basket and put time back on the clock. The horn went and the period ended with the ball still in the shooter's hands. The rules that I cited say that you can't adjust anything. AAMOF the NCAA AR couldn't be more explicit.

You and All_Heart are confusing a timing <b>"mistake"</b> with normal reaction time to stop the clock. The rules allow you to correct a <b>mistake</b>. This <b>isn't</b> a <b>mistake</b>. The clock was stopped properly.

JR, with the removal of the lag-time restriction on fixing timing errors, you absolutely can put time back on the clock and count the bucket. The caveat is simple, you must have definite knowledge of how much time to put back on.

What timing <b>error</b>?

In this play, the timer stopped the clock properly as soon as he recognized the foul call. While stopping the clock, time ran out and the horn ended the period. There's no timing <b>error</b> to correct.

If you blow your whistle for a second, do you think that you should put a second back on the clock to account for the time between the beginning and end of your whistle blow? Don't think so. It's not practical.

You fix errors. This isn't an error.

Then why bother removing "lag time?"

They're taking the guesswork out of clock adjustment when the timer makes an <b>"error"</b>--i.e. they're slow stopping the clock or sumthin' like that. Stopping the clock normally will always have a few tenths different from the start of the whistle to the stop. That's why the NCAA AR is written the way it is, with no time adjustment.

There is nothing in the OP that suggests a timing <b>error</b> occurring.

One of your better contributions.....:D

You might be thinking of this thread. It has the same concept. I don't think there was consensus on that one either......

http://forum.officiating.com/showthread.php?t=31116

Your way is easier. I'm fine with that.

So how much time are you allowing him to stop the clock before you consider it an error?

If I blow the whistle, see 1 second on the clock, and he allows the time to expire and the horn to sound, I can certainly count the basket, and put one second back on the clock.

5-10-1
The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock.

There is no more lag time or reaction time. That's over, gone, history. He no longer gets 1 second to stop the clock.

You're talking about a timing <b>error</b> too.

See NFHS rule 5-6-2EXCEPTION2:--<i>"If a held ball or violation occurs so near the expiration of time that the timer cannot get the clock stopped before time expires, the quarter or extra period ends with the held ball or violation."</i>

The NCAA rule is exactly the same, and they also added the AR to make sure that you rule the same way for the situation when the ball is still in the shooter's hands when the horn goes off. If you don't add time for a held ball or violation, why would you add time for a foul under the exact same circumstances?

I had that same situation at camp this weekend:
A1 is in the act of shooting.
- B1 Fouls A1.
- A split second later time expires and the horn sounds.
- A1 releases shot and it goes in.

I went to my partners and ask them if they had definate knowledge of the time after my whistle. They said no, so we ended the half with shots. Now, the evaluator said I should have put .3 back on the clock. But I told him that we didnt have definate knowledge.

If the ball wasnt released, prior to the horn, shot is no good.

But again, I ask, how much time are you allowing him to stop the clock before you consider it an error?

He hasn't answered because he can't. The clock is supposed to be stopped when the whistle sounds, not after. If it is after, there is an error. Sure, its not practially possible to do so but that is the rule. Sure the officials may not have information to correct it, but it is still an error.

JR asked why wouldn't you do the same for a foul as for a violation or held ball? Easy, because the rule only says to do that for a violation or held ball. The fact that it doesn't say so about a foul means it doesn't apply to a foul.

A shooter fouled before the horn gets to complete the shooting motion. Since the clock is stopped at the foul/whistle, it can't legally expire.

1) Well, of course I can't. Each play is different. This play being discussed isn't an <b>error</b> <i>per se</i> though.

2) Feel feel to explain why NCAA AR121 sez you're completely full of doodoo.

That determination is made for each and every play. It sureasheck doesn't hold for all plays. If I feel that the timer was slow stopping the clock, and I have <b>definite</b> information that will allow me to adjust the clock, then I'll adjust the clock. If I feel that the whistle and horn were almost simultaneous, then the <b>only</b> thing that I have have to make a judgment on is whether the ball was still in the shooter's hands when the horn went. I can't put any time back on the clock when there <b>isn't</b> a timing <b>error</b>. If you think that I can, please cite a rule that will back your contention up.

How do you explain away NCAA AR121 btw?

If I see the clock move after the whistle, it's an error. If the horn sounds very close to the whistle and I don't have time to check the clock, then I don't have definite knowledge, and will not correct it even if it might be an error. But if I see it move after my whistle, then it's error and we're going to fix it.

Yup. One is an error. One isn't. That's what NCAA AR121 is saying.

That's what I thought as well.

All of which is my problem now and, Scrapper will remember, last year, too. They eliminate lag time create a problem foir which they've given us no answer.

Not to sound ugly but I don't work NCAA rules, nor have I read any of the discussion regarding NCAA rules. They don't apply to NFHS situations. Therefore, I can't explain it to you one way or another. Nor do I care what it says. :)

Well, the FED and the NCAA have basically the same rules language concerning when the ball is dead, etc. The NCAA just went one step further with which is basically a case play.

What rules backing can you find under NFHS rules that will allow you to put time back on the clock? How do you explain away R5-6-2EXCEPTION2? If you can't put time back on the clock for a violation or held ball if the clock can't be stopped before time expires, why should you be able to put time back on the clock for a foul that happened under the exact same circumstances?

Yep, we knocked it around when some Carolina association issued a ruling about the play.

http://forum.officiating.com/showthread.php?t=29911

NFHS case book play 5.6.2SitD says otherwise.

Thank Nevada for digging that one up from an old thread.

NFHS case book play 5.6.2SitD does though. Just about the same ruling as NCAA AR121.

Canada is in South Carolina?:D

I guess you have to go with the AR but it makes no sense.

If you have a foul and you know your whistle came before the horn then put time back on the clock and shoot the free throw (count the basket) or free throws (if unsucessful).

If the horn goes off before the release and you have a foul after the horn then just end the quarter, half or game. You can't have a foul unless it is a legitimate try and in this case it can't be because time has expired and the end of the quarter, half or regulation has occurred and the ball is considered to be dead.

This is a good play to talk about though.

Look, I'm not saying you're wrong, or right. :)

In my mind, the Fed simply has not taken care of business with this rule changed. I b!tched about it last year when they changed it (Ask Scrapper!).

I think it's very clear that if the whistle sounds before the horn, then the clock should stop. Since the clock should stop, the player is allowed to complete his shot because time has not expired. If Precision Time is present, that's EXACTLY what's going to happen. Why shouldn't it happen when there isn"t PT? Why should the clock not be reset when humanity plays apart in not stopping it when the whistle blows?

Again, how much time is an error and how much time is allowable? With lag time, it was clear. They've done a LOUSY job with this situation.

Can't really argue with that either.

It is when you get as tired as I was when I wrote that! :)
I've gone back and fixed it.

Are you from South Carolina? If so, then it appears that you can do just that.
I've already posted the link to the earlier thread on this, but since their webpage changes and thus the play ruling might be hard to locate, I'll post it again here. NOTE: This is NOT the official NFHS ruling for the play, it is just the opinion of the SC folks.

2006-2007 - Special Play of the Week

The play described below is a special situation that occurs occassionally and is provided for your review. The ruling given is based on Federation rules. NCAA rulings may be different.

Play #1 - A1 jumps to attempt a last second try. A1 is fouled, the whistle sounds and, after the whistle has sounded, the horn sounds indicating that time has expired for the period. A1 then releases the try and subsequently the ball passes through the basket. What is the correct procedure?

Answer: In the past the goal would not be counted since the try was released after the horn had sounded. The clock operator was allowed a one second "lag time" to stop the clock. In other words, the period had ended prior to the release of the try. A1 would have been awarded two or three free throws based on the location of the attempt.

However, with the elimination of "lag time", by rule, there has now been an obvious timing mistake . That is, the clock should have stopped when the whistle was sounded. Therefore, the basket must be counted since, by rule, it was released prior to the end of the period. One free throw will be administered.

The officials will confer to determine who has the definite knowledge of the amount of time involved. The referee shall put that amount of time back on the clock. Remember only the referee can put time back on the clock (Rule 5.10.1). Players will line up along the free throw lane for the free throw attempt.

If the officials do not have definite knowledge, then no time will be put back on the clock The free throw will be attempted with no players lined up along the lane and, by rule (Rule 5.6.2 Exception 3), the period will end when the free throw attempt is over barring any additional foul (technical or personal) that may occur prior to the end of the free throw attempt.

Note: Time correction with definite information/knowledge --- "lag time", by rule, is no longer a factor. The fact is there will be many times during the game that lag time will take place. Officials cannot watch the clock all the time. Until all levels of basketball use the "magic whistle", that fact will not change. The Editor has clarified that the rules committee did not intend to cause the officials to become clock watchers, there is a game to officiate. The change came about because many clocks now display tenths of a second and at the end of quarters time is very visible and crucial. During other parts of the game it certainly is possible to correct timing errors of one second or more, but it is more difficult to observe without tenths of a second visible on the clock.

And South Carolina completely ignored case book play 5.6.2SitD when they made that ruling. Their ruling is at complete odds with that NFHS case play.

Silly monkeys.

Funny thing about that case...it doesn't mention when the whistle sounds. I infer it to mean that the official didn't sound the whistle in time to have the clock stopped. In that case, I'd agree. The clock can't be stopped before the whistle.

Now answer the question...how little time is not an error? Put simply, the only number is 0.0 seconds. Anything more is an error. The counting or cancelling of a basket when the clock runs after the whistle should not depend on whether the official knows how much time to correct.

Not really, I don't think. This is just the opinion of a not very knowledgeable rules interpreter from one association in South Carolina. I doubt very much that it came from the state and is regarded as an official ruling. That would fly in the face of common sense when there is a case play saying that this particular ruling is wrong.

Okay lets break down what the referee can do to correct a timing error.

<o></o>

Art 1 states that you must have "definite information" to correct a timing mistake.

Art 2 states that the official can use "other official information".


Play 1:
There is a foul and a whistle with 0.5 seconds showing but the timer doesn't stop the clock. No officials observe the "exact time" on the clock.

Question 1a:
Are we allowed to ask the timer or scorer if they saw the amount of time on the clock? I would say that this is "other official information".

Question 1b:
No one in the gym (officials, table crew, coaches, mom in stands) observed the amount of time on the clock but the officials are 100% positive that the whistle came before the horn. We have definite information that at least 0.1 seconds should be on the clock (Rule 5-10-2) so shouldn't this be the amount of time we put back on the clock?

Question 1c:
Everthing is the same in the above play except the official observes 0.2 seconds on the clock before it expires. We have definite information that at least 0.2 seconds should be on the clock (Rule 5-10-1) and this is what is put on the clock. If you look at the 2 underlined sentences they are identical except for the amount of time, the way that the information was gathered and the rule applied. Does Art 2 allow us (by rule) to put 0.1 seconds on the clock without having to observe it?

That is to say, they're not even similar.

:D LOL I guess that didn't make much sense.

My point was that in each you have definite information that there is at least a certain amount of time on the clock. You just get that information a different way.

Have I made a good enough argument to put .1 second on the clock and score a basket that was still in a players hands when the horn went off but should have been stopped?

Has anyone sent this play to the Fed for a possible clarafication?

You have no rules justification to put any time back on the clock. You do not have <b>definite</b> knowledge of any kind. No one observed the time on the clock and there was no official count of any kind made. There's no need to go to the FED for a clarification when NFHS rule 5-10 already covers the play definitively.

You already have a definitive NFHS case play and a definitive NCAA AR saying that no time goes back on the clock in this particular situation. What more do you need?

No.

I believe so.

The way I understand it, "definitive information" means you need to know exactly how much time to put back on the clock, and not use a guess. This definitive information can be the result of an official looking at the clock and knowing what the clock says at the time of the whistle, checking with a table person to find out what the clock said/says, or even a specific official's count, such as a backcourt 10-sec. count. However, in your example, even though you know some time needs to be added back, .1 seconds is still a guess. How do you know it isn't really .03, or 1.1? You may definitely know time might need to be added, but you do not know definitively how much time to add.

Um, yea, what they said!

I guess I need a refresher on my speed-typing course.

This is not exactly true. I agree you do not have definite knowledge of how much time ran off the clock after the whistle sounded. But you do have definite knowledge that some time ran off the clock after the whistle sounded.

This is similar to the case in which there is a backcourt throw-in and after you've been in the frontcourt for a few seconds, you recognize that the clock didn't start. I think it was Camron Rust who argued that you should take time off the clock equal to whatever your backcourt count was, because you have definite knowledge that at least that much time should've come off the clock.

All_Heart is making a similar case, in that you know at least 0.1 seconds came off the clock, since the whistle definitely came first.

I agree that without seeing the exact amount of time that ran off, we can't fix it in this case.

1) Disagree. It is true. Definite knowledge is exact knowledge, not a guess. You have <b>NO</b> idea how much time ran off the clock in this play. End of story--- rules-wise. If you think otherwise, post a "definite time" then.

2) How can a play where there is NO official count or knowledge available of any kind be similar to another play where there was an official count for part of the play? That makes absolutely no sense at all. Apples and coconuts. Btw, Camron's argument is nonsensical also imo. The rule says you have to have definite information relative to the time involved to make a correction. It sureashell doesn't say that you can also have definite knowledge for <b>part</b> of the time involved.

"Definite" does not mean "exact." "Exact" is neither in the rules nor is it a practical guideline. If you want exact knowledge, you'll never make a correction in the time.
You can definitely know that at least 5 seconds should have come off, even if you know it should have been closer to 15. Take the 5 off.

Now, if you're unsure, talk to the assigner/rules interpreter relevant to your assigned games. If your assigner happens to be Jurassic, well, you know what to do....

I know we are beating this point into the ground. I agree that the NCAA AR specifically handles this situation. However I feel that the NFHS leaves this open for discussion. As you said "Definite knowledge is exact knowledge, not a guess", you have exact knowledge that at least 0.1 seconds should be on the clock. I'm not suggesting putting 0.4 seconds so that you may have a catch and shoot as some officials would consider "common sense". I think until they put out a case play (like the NCAA AR) it is open for interpretation on what definite knowledge implies.

Play:
The official glances up at the clock and there is 3 seconds counting down. 1 or 2 seconds later your partner calls a foul. The timer forgets to stop the clock and shortly after the whistle the horn sounds with the ball still in the shooters hands. The shooter continues his shot and makes the basket. No one saw the clock after the whistle.

Do you agree or disagree with the following statements:
1) The official has definite knowledge that the whistle came before the horn.
2) The official has definite knowledge that 0.1 seconds or greater should be on the clock.
3) We can only put 0.1 seconds because anymore would be guessing.
4) In a NFHS game we will count the basket and put 0.1 seconds on the clock with A1 shooting 1 free throw.
5) In a NCAA game we will disallow the basket and the shooter will shoot 2 free throws with no time remaining.

This is a great point Snaqwells.

Maybe the rules committee could put out a ruling saying if you didn't see the time remaining then take your best estimated guess and subtract 50% to be safe.

So if there is 30 seconds left and you think it should be 40 then you would put it at 35. I know, I know this would never happen but there needs to be something for the good of the game in this situation.

90% of the time GOOD officials will check the clock after a whistle, but what happens if there is a big fight with 20 seconds remaining and everyone (rightfully so) forgets about the clock. There should be something in the rules that allow us to put time back on the clock in this situation!

You put back on the <b>exact</b> time that you see on the clock. You take off the <b>exact</b> time of your count.

Again, where may I find anywhere in the rules-NCAA or NFHS- any reference to being able to put on or take off <b>part</b> of the time actually used?

1) The NFHS case play is <b>exactly</b> the same as the NCAA AR.Are you really saying that FED case play 5.6.2SitD is <b>wrong</b>?

2) Again, this is <b>NOT</b> the play being discussed. It has completely different circumstances. In the original post there was NO timing <b>mistake</b> made. Notwithstanding that, this play is similar in that the ball is dead if it is still in the shooter's hands when the horn goes off, under both NCAA and NFHS rules. And because there is no definite information available, no time can be put back on the clock-- also by rule.

In my second year of officiating, I was doing a JV game with a partner I'd never worked with before. I had a shooting foul under the basket and didn't see if the basket was made. My partner didn't cut me off as I went to the table, which normally means that the shot didn't go in. I reported the foul and said 2 shots, the coach asked "Doesn't the basket count?" So I go ask my partner if the shot went in. All I got was a blank stare. I went back to the coach and said I don't know and my partner doesn't know, so we're shooting 2 shots.

After the game, the varsity officials bring up that play. I explain what happened, etc. He suggested that in that situation, if neither of us know if the basket was made, to ask the table personnel, "Did the ball go through the basket on the shot". At the time, I'm sure the table personnel knew that it did, but I didn't ask them.

So my question, is it reasonable to ask the timer if he/she has definite knowledge to the time on the clock at the time of the whistle? If so, then use that knowledge to reset the time.

Why do you keep saying this? It is not true. ncaa 2.5.1f says the official monitor can be consulted to make...

This idea extends to games where there is no courtside monitor. IOW, you had better be prepared to fix clock errors as they occur to the best of your ability. If that means to you that someone on the crew has to claim "definite knowledge" then so be it. But the crew cannot let obvious timing mistakes go unfixed.

Yes, if the timer does have <b>definite</b> knowledge you can use it. See NFHS case play 5.10.1SitD.

I'm not saying this. Nor have I ever said this. The NCAA rule book is saying this. I'm just repeating what they say. Specifically, the NCAA is saying this through AR121(a) at R5-7-3. That AR is the exact same play as the original post and it says that you don't put any time back on the clock. NFHS case book play5.6.2SitD is exactly similar also, and the FED says that time doesn't go back on the clock either.

It's <b>NOT</b> a timing mistake. The horn and whistle for the foul were almost simultaneous. Iow, the timer stopped the clock properly at the whistle but the horn still went off. The calling official now has to determine whether the foul occurred before or after the horn, and also has to determine that if the foul occurred first, was the ball still in the shooter's hands when the horn went off. If the official determined that the foul occurred before the horn and the ball was in the shooter's hands at the horn, then NCAA AR121 and NFHS case book play 5.6.2SitD tell you exactly what to do.

Maybe you missed this part of the rule I referenced?

AR 121 tells us what to do in the absence of a timing mistake (which is left to the judgement of the officials).

Nope, I didn't miss that. That was my point. You're still trying to use a timing mistake in stopping the clock. The original post does not contain a timing mistake. AR121 and the NFHS case play have got nothing to do with timing mistakes either.

But.....if you did go back on the original play and try to figure out how to put time back on the clock using the monitor, pray tell how are you gonna able to do that <b>accurately</b>? How do you know <b>exactly</b> to the tenth of a second when the official actually blew the whistle on this play to call the foul?

For nfhs rules sure, because there is no provision for the official to go to a monitor even if he believes a timing mistake has been made. Under ncaa rules if the official judges that a timing mistake was made then the R can utilize a monitor if available. If a mistake has in fact been made AR121 does not apply and the referee adjusts the clock per what he sees on the screen.

The monitor must display the clock to fix timing errors. In the original play either case can be reviewed but only under the second case would time go back on, because there was a timing mistake that would be shown on the monitor.

Here's the original play again:

As for the 0.1 rule of thumb..if the monitor is available it will tell you what to put back up. If there's no monitor then I frankly don't see how a human can determine 0.1 seconds. IOW it's not an obvious error. But for the obvious errors something has to come off.

That's cool. Now 'splain to me exactly how you <b>know</b>, using the monitor and clock display, exactly <b>when</b> the clock should have been stopped? The whistle for the foul is supposed to stop the clock. How do you know exactly at what point on the clock/monitor display that the whistle actually sounded? Are you really telling me that you can watch the monitor and say for certain that the <b>whistle</b> for the foul occurred with <b>exactly</b> 0.1 seconds left on the clock? Or 0.2 seconds? or 0.3 seconds?

Hell, they couldn't analyze the Zapruder film that closely. You're guessing. The rules don't allow that.

JR,
Under NCAA rules, if the monitor is consulted, the time which is put back on the clock is the time that was showing at the moment of the CONTACT for the foul, NOT when the official blew the whistle.

I know that for a fact.

Cool. Now explain why NCAA AR121 doesn't allow for monitor usage then?

I'm just pointing out what the NCAA rule book says. I'm not giving my opinion on anything.

Whether or not you think it's guessing 2-5 allows it. Period.
2-5 says it is not a guess.

And we'll try 1 more time.

AR121 applies when a timing mistake is not part of the equation.

When there's a timing mistake 2-5 dominates.

Why does the NCAA book instruct the official to use the red LED lights in preference to the display on the game clock when judging whether a last second try for goal was released in time, but when the monitor is consulted the clock showing all zeros takes a higher priority than the lights coming on?

Because there are some inconsistencies in the book. This is yet another example.

Dan_ref explained it best when he stated that the monitor rules take over IF the officials have a valid reason to consult it--such as a timing error.

So the best that I can tell you is that the call on the court with no monitor usage is what the AR says, but once the monitor gets brought into it things change.
Unfortunately, that could mean that the correct call on the court is that the try is no good and two FTs will be awarded with the lane clear and no time on the clock, but upon consulting the monitor it might be correct to put 0.1 seconds back on, count the basket, and award one FT.

Dan,
It is my understanding that the referee crew would obviously consult the monitor in such a situation to see if the try for goal was released in time. In doing so, they would then be able to clearly observe the time of the foul and decide that a timing error occurred and put that time back on the clock. Wouldn't this then necessitate scoring the goal?
In other words, AR121 is completely useless for any game that has a courtside monitor. It would only mean something for contests played without access to a monitor.

Where is the timing mistake? The timer stopped the clock on the whistle.

And......<b>how</b> do you use the monitor <b>accurately</b> to put back on 0.1 seconds or 0.2 seconds?

Ok, I went and did more research on this play for NCAA games with a courtside monitor. What I found should answer both the question asked by the OP and JR's repeated inquiry of what constitutes a timing error.



NCAA Basketball Rules Interpretations
September 19, 2005



Rules Interpretations:

Play:
At or near the expiration of time, A1 is fouled in the act of shooting and then after the foul releases the ball for a try for goal. A1’s try is (a) successful (b) unsuccessful.
Ruling:
When a foul and a try for goal sequentially occur at or near the expiration of time, the official shall use the monitor to determine whether the foul and the try occurred before the reading of 0.00 on the game clock. In (a), when it is determined that the foul occurred before the reading of 0.00 on the game clock but the try was not released before the reading of 0.00, the foul shall be penalized and the goal shall not count. When it can be determined with the use of the monitor, the official shall be permitted to put the exact time on the game clock as to when the foul occurred.
When it is determined with the use of the monitor, that both the foul and the try occurred before the reading of 0.00 on the game clock, the foul shall be penalized and the goal shall count. When it can be determined, with the use of the monitor, the official shall be permitted to put the exact time on the game clock as to when the foul occurred. When this determination cannot be made, the official shall be permitted to put the exact time back on the game clock when it can be determined as to when the ball passed through the net.
In (b), since the try was unsuccessful, the official shall use the monitor to determine whether the foul occurred before the reading of 0.00 on the game clock. When it is determined that the foul occurred before the reading of 0.00, the foul shall be penalized. When it can be determined, the officials shall be permitted to put back on the game clock the exact time as to when the foul occurred.


Interpretation for Rule 2-5.1g: When a game clock with a 10th-of-a-second display is in use and the official blows the whistle, signals for the game clock to be stopped, and in his/her judgment one second or less has elapsed before the official timer stopped the game clock, the official shall instruct the official timer to put the correct time on the game clock.


Interpretation for Rule 2-6.2: When a game clock with a 10th-of-a-second display is in use and the official blows the whistle, signals for the game clock to be stopped, and has definite knowledge that one second or less has elapsed before the official timer stopped the game clock, the official shall instruct the official timer to put the correct time on the game clock.


I will concede that the ruling in part (a) seems absurd to me. The official is going to look at the monitor and see that the foul occurred prior to the expiration of time and will put that time back on the clock, yet the successful try will NOT count because the timer/PT device couldn't get the clock stopped quickly enough upon hearing the whistle. So try explaining that one to a coach!http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...otallthere.gif




Ref's words: Yes coach, there was time left when your player was fouled, and that is the amount of time that is now on the clock. However, your player's basket was too late and doesn't count EVEN THOUGH THERE IS NOW TIME ON THE CLOCK! So he will be shooting two.

Coach's reaction: http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...illy_nilly.gif

Even 0.1 seconds is considered a timing mistake according to the interpretation above.

They can pause and go frame by frame.

1) Cool. Of course, I don't agree, but cool. My original question still stands. Explain why no time is put back on the clock in AR121.

2) Unfortunately for your thesis, AR121 says that they don't use the monitor. I'm still interested though in how you could accurately find out from the monitor whether to put 0.1 or 0.2 seconds back on the clock. You stated that they go by "contact". Well, how do they go by contact? How do they determine accurately to within a tenth of a second when contact on this particular play becomes a foul? Or do they guess?

PS- I didn't make the damned approved ruling up. It's in the NCAA rulebook. That AR is almost word-for-word the same situation as the second sequence that Dan posted above. And that situation is the same as the question asked in the original post in this thread. Both the NCAA AR and the FED case play tell you how to handle that particular play. In the AR you've got a <b>RULE</b> that says that you do <b>NOT</b> put 0.1 seconds back on the clock. All of the theses in the world can't change that little slice of history.

Logic vs. Rules
 

My fellow officials, some of us are allowing logic to cloud our judgments.

Logic says, if the foul happens before the whistle, the clock should be stopped and time should remain and the shot should count.

The rules do not say the same thing, and in fact contradict logic. I believe the rule should be logical, but it is not. Our job is NOT to determine what makes the most sense, but to implement the rules and interpretations given to us in the rule and case books.

When there are no rules to fall back on, the R may make his/her own interpretation. When the rules are in place, we must use them, even if we don't like them.

It doesn't say they don't use a monitor, it says nothing about a monitor. It also says nothing about what to do if A1 has blood all over his jersey...you saying the blood rules are suspended by AR121 too?

Anyway, I've said all I have to say on this and you're just copy/pasting the same silly questions over & over.

Later.

I'm pretty sure that's what Dan_ref just said to you.

Actually, to be precise, I think he is saying....
http://www.forumspile.com/Die-Go_try_this.jpg

Because without a monitor it would nearly impossible to have the knowledge needed to make such an adjustment to the clock.
They view the video and use their best judgment to determine when the contact that constitutes a foul takes place. Once the officials determine the point on the video replay when that happens they freeze the display and look at the little clock on the screen. Whatever that clock says is the amount put back on. Sound simple enough?:)

How about a rule interpretation from September 19, 2005? :D

How about an approved ruling in this year's NCAA rulebook?

Shrug....

I think it's time for a refill.

http://weekends.onesite.com/images/b...os/popcorn.jpg

And maybe something to drink.

http://www.brewandchew.com/images/yuengling-lager.jpg