Scorebook T

MOFFICIAL · #1 (**permalink**) Sun Dec 23, 2001, 05:08pm

I was the R in a HS boys JV game. Coach comes to me at 4 minute mark and says I want to add a player to the scorebook. I said it will cost you a T and he said do what you need to do. I then asked him why he wanted to add the name and he said the kid had been injured and his name was not recorded in the prior game and the scorers copied names to this nights scoresheets off of scoresheets from the last game. I then offered to discuss it with the opposing coach to see if he had a problem with allowing the addition without penalty. I explained to offended coach that by rule he was entitled to the Free throws to start the game and possesion if he wanted enforcement. We all talked it over and offended coach was very gracious and just said that the offending coach "owed him one". So we add the name and no "T".
In retrospect I think I screwed up because I put the offended coach on the spot and pretty much asked him to make the call that I should have made.
What is your opinion?

Mark Dexter · #2 (**permalink**) Sun Dec 23, 2001, 05:21pm

I say call the T. It is the coach's responsibility to get the list of players and starters to the scorer. If the coach says to use the last game's list, and forgets to add a player, too bad.

Now, if the coach told the scorer "Copy last night's roster and add #41" and the scorer forgot, you have no penalty.

My suggestion - never, ever give the opposing coach the option on the technical foul! Just look at his comment - they owe me. What happens later in the game when A2 commits an unsportsmanlike act? Do you wave it off because A owes B one? Unlike football, you cannot decline a penalty in basketball.

(Side note, if coach B didn't have a problem with the name being added, he should just instruct his FT shooter to miss both shots).

BktBallRef · #3 (**permalink**) Sun Dec 23, 2001, 05:22pm

I would have to agree. You created the situation. The offending coach was okay with the T, so why pursue any other avenue? JMO

williebfree · #4 (**permalink**) Sun Dec 23, 2001, 05:49pm

Sorry, but I do not get WHY you would even "involve" the opposing coach. This is a clear-cut situation. "T" the team with the incorrect roster and move on...... Simple scenerio.

Mark Padgett · #5 (**permalink**) Sun Dec 23, 2001, 07:02pm

Once you start asking the howler monkeys for permission to make your calls (which, really, is what you did), you have totally undermined any authority you may have had on the court.

Remember, you don't make the rules, you just insist they be followed whenever anybody gives you any crap.

BktBallRef · #6 (**permalink**) Sun Dec 23, 2001, 08:39pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
Now, if the coach told the scorer "Copy last night's roster and add #41" and the scorer forgot, you have no penalty.

I disagree. If the player isn't in the book and the coach can't produce a roster that he provided for the scorer with #41 on it, whether it be a sheet of paper or last night's roster, there's no proof that the scorer was directed to put #41 in the book. If he says he verbally told her to put him in the book, and he's not there, then I have a T. He doesn't have a tree to swing from, er I mean, a leg to stand on.

paulis · #7 (**permalink**) Sun Dec 23, 2001, 08:44pm

Somewhat similar situation occured a couple of days ago:

9th place game boys varsity tournament. In second quarter three players from red team report to the scorer's table and are beckoned on at first opportunity. Immediately after waving them on but before we make the ball live, we notice that red #55 is wearing a white undershirt with sleeves. We instruct him to leave. As a different player replaces #55 the table informs us that they do not have a #55 in the book. Red coach says he wont have #55 play to avoid a T but I tell him it is too late, when he was beckoned on the court he became a player...Opposing coach says he doesn't care (his opinion was not asked, he had overheard the conversation at the table) if we don't issue the T. Much easier to take care of the necessary business and keep the slate clean.

paulis · #8 (**permalink**) Sun Dec 23, 2001, 09:02pm

By the way, in the same game we had a disconcertion call on a free throw; a lob pass from beyond the three point arc that went in the basket; and a foul by the defending team immediately after a made basket so the in-bounding team retained the right to run the baseline. I believe that is the trifecta...

BktBallRef · #9 (**permalink**) Sun Dec 23, 2001, 09:24pm

Quote:

Originally posted by paulis
I believe that is the trifecta...

No, please don't! A Vitale-ism? Aargh!

MOFFICIAL · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 24, 2001, 07:14am

Thanks to all who replied to my post about the scorebook T.
At the time I thought I did the right thing but as you all pointed out the T was warranted and should have been called.
Henceforth from this day forward I will make my calls based on my knowledge of the rules and not let anything stand in the way of that.

williebfree · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 24, 2001, 09:21am

Now, now.... Tis the season of giving

"Ts".... Ha ha ha.

Seriously, that decision (unrecorded player) was made by the coach (Howler Monkey, for Mark).

We, officials, "whistle while we work"; we react to actions of the participants. Occasionally we step in with preventative officiating, but we do it judiciously and as an effort to maintain the flow (and safety) of the game.

The officials who want to do the right thing (administering the rules of the games, by spirit and intent) are constantly seeking ways to improve their skills. This Discussion board gives you another opportunity for that process.

Keep up the good effort and positive, learning attitude, do not be too harsh on yourself. We all "kick it" occasionally.

Season's Greetings and best wishes to all!

MOFFICIAL · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 24, 2001, 01:21pm

willie,
Thanks for the encouraging words. I do believe I'm constantly refining my game and this board helps tremendously in sounding off ideas and situations.
I have found it a valuable tool. Along with the books.
Peace-out
Mofficial

rainmaker · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 25, 2001, 04:19am

Quote:

Originally posted by MOFFICIAL
Thanks to all who replied to my post about the scorebook T.
At the time I thought I did the right thing but as you all pointed out the T was warranted and should have been called.
Henceforth from this day forward I will make my calls based on my knowledge of the rules and not let anything stand in the way of that.

I believe you might have another choice, which is to just quietly decide yourself not to adjudicate the T. I mean, it was definitely wrong to ask the other coach, but you could make the decision yourself, or between you and your partner. I could see some possible justifications for that. Regardless, it might be good preventive officiating to advise the coach that he always put all players in the book. Too many names is no problem, so even if they're injured why not put the name in? This will prevent this probelm from happening again. Then, if you have his team again next month and this problem comes up again, puke on his shoes. Or stare at his pants, or whatever....

Man, I don't think I'll ever get comfortable saying those things.... must be a guy thing!

Jurassic Referee · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 25, 2001, 06:34am

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
Then, if you have his team again next month and this problem comes up again, puke on his shoes. Or stare at his pants, or whatever....

[/B]

Ah,Juulie,I'm just so..so..so proud of you.You're turning into a degenerate just like Mark Padgett,me,and a few others.I'll bet Mark is just beaming!This is another great step in your development as an official.

:

williebfree · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 25, 2001, 11:53pm

I wonder (

) how many officials were promoted to echelons above their competence because they had a mean "hairy eyeball" and the veracity to stare at a guys pants, followed by a voluminous vomit on his shoes.

Aint it all FUN!