Could it get any worse than this?

[JRutledge]

This is why I need to leave girls basketball alone. I had a Girls Varsity Christmas Tournament just recently and I think this was the lowest experience of my officiating career.

Examples of the type of night it was:

Pre-game:

1. Suppose to be 3 officials, no warning just two of us show up.

2. No announcer for several minutes. This is not a major problem at all, but they did not want to start the game until he showed up. So he waltzes in after we have been waiting on him for 5 minutes or so and then does not have the starting line-ups for the game to announce.

Game Starts:

1. This is a game between a team that is ranked, and a team that has no business still having a program.

2. The ranked team is the only team that wants to play (Team A). Team B only has one girl that even cares and is the biggest girl on the floor, but she has no clue what she is doing in the first place.

3. Do we have coaches? I had to ask myself this question all night. We did not have an offense that I could see run by either team. Team B's coach did not say a word the whole night it seemed. Not to the her players, not to us about anything. I do not think that Team B's coach even subbed for any of the starters, and she had at least 5 bench players on the team.

4. The game was a blow out. This is not in itself a problem, but when we have a 60 point game, and the winning team is just shooting 3 point shots, just to shoot them, how bad can it get. Team A would have fast break opportunities, but seemed to pass them up to shoot 3s. Not just fast break opportunities, they would have had easy layups and passed those up, stepped back to shoot 3 point shots that they could not make. I think we had a stretch of 3s from Team A that had to be about 15 shots. I think they only made one or two. This had to have only been in a 2 or 3 minutes stretch in the game. This game was completely played like a Summer rec. league game. No offenses, hardly could see a organized defense, every though it started as a 2-3 zone on both sides.


I could not get home in time enough to be happy at all. This game was awful and everything surrounding it was that way. I have had summer tournmants that were better than this. Even one of the officials in the game before me, had an official that did the game in black jeans. Yes you heard me correct, BLACK JEANS. I could tell by the little jean patch on the back of them. And I will drilled about whether I could do a varsity game with this assignor? I guess I will chalk this up to experience.

Peace

[Dan_ref]

Wow, sounds like a bad night from start to end!
I'll agree that you're more likely to see a big blowout at
a girls game but it seems to me that a lot of these things
could have happened in a boys game. What I'm hoping is that
you had your game face on for the entire contest and gave
this game all you had. I do some HS girls games & I
agree that on rare occasion they can be painful. But
there's nothing I hate more than having a partner who
clearly thinks working a girls game is beneath them.

[BktBallRef]

Dan is exactly right. A partner didn't show up. The PA announcer didn't show up. A team got blown out. What does any of that have to do with the sex of the players? My advice is that if you feel this way, don't accept any girls games and leave them for someone who would really like to work them.

JMHO

[DrC.]

Yes it can, Girls JV game. I had one the other day. We must have had 50 Jump balls (AP). Everytime team A got the Ball, team B tied them up. Team B didn't protect the ball all to well either. This is nothing against girls basketball. Some of the games are very good. This just happened to be one of those games !!!

[LarryS]

JRutledge,
I usually enjoy reading your post and have learned much from you and the others here. This time, however, I think you are dead wrong. Nothing you described is limited to the girls game. I went to see a 8th grade boys game a couple of weeks ago...home team was up by 25 at the end of the first quarter. If the son of a dear freind had not asked me to go see him, I would not have stayed to see that the final margin of victory was 68.

If you hate the girls game so much, do them a favor and refuse to call them. I'm not questioning you professionalism, but it is human nature not to put 100% in something you despise doing. They deserve better, JMO.

[stripes]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Dan is exactly right. A partner didn't show up. The PA announcer didn't show up. A team got blown out. What does any of that have to do with the sex of the players? My advice is that if you feel this way, don't accept any girls games and leave them for someone who would really like to work them.

JMHO

IMO, these things can happen at boys games, but they tend to happen at girls games. We have a consistent problem in my area with lack of security, inadequate facilities for changing our clothes (for a crew with men and women), locked doors with no keys to be found, etc. This is a game management problem. Obviously (to me anyway), the schools don't take the games as seriously as they do boys games.

FWIW, I quit doing girls games two years ago because I don't enjoy the basketball. The quality is much lower and I am happier not doing them. Jeff, you might want to think about this.

Originally posted by LarryS
JRutledge,
I usually enjoy reading your post and have learned much from you and the others here. This time, however, I think you
are dead wrong. Nothing you described is limited to the girls game. I went to see a 8th grade boys game a couple of
weeks ago...home team was up by 25 at the end of the first quarter. If the son of a dear freind had not asked me to go
see him, I would not have stayed to see that the final margin of victory was 68.

The big difference here is varsity contest vs. 8th grade. I have never seen an 8th grade game have anything done in the same scope as a varsity game. Apples and oranges, IMO.

[Hawks Coach]

I have to say something Jrut - your post frankly offends me. Blowouts? Montrose Christian HS boys team currently has an AVERAGE margin of victory over 60 points per game - guess they must be a girls team in disguise, or simply playing girls teams. Poor coaching, poor support for girls ball - it is a problem because some schools put no resources into girls ball. So lets give these girls substandard officials, timers, gyms, supervision etc. to keep it on a par with their coaching. Let's make sure that everything is bad for them simply because some people at some schools still don't see a value in their girl's sports programs.

I used to coach boys and now coach exclusively girls. There are definitely differences in the two (definitely more tie-ups in gball!). But my girls show up for every game and compete, much more than I can say for half the boys I coached. I had to bench my entire starting line-up for lack of effort on more than one occasion with my boys. In two years and over 150 games, only done that once with my girls. We run offenses, press breaks, presses, organized half-court defenses, inbounds plays, laned fast breaks - this is not an issue of the players but the coaches. My son's middle school team never ran an organized offense or defense all year last year because most of the players didn't care and the coach couldn't get it done. Even my rec teams were more organized.

You have always stated your opposition to reffing girls games, so please stay off the court with that attitude. But don't blame it on the girls.

[paulis]

Quit your whining and do your job. I think all of us, whether officials, coaches, parents, or whatever, have been involved in games that rubbed us the wrong way. That's life. If I happen to be involved in anything close to what you had to endure, I go out of my way to make the experience a positive one for somebody. Educate a player on a rule, explain a strange call to a fan, etc.

[ChuckElias]

Ok, here's my two cents. Rut's entire post would've been fine if he'd just said "This is why I need to leave girls basketball in Illinois alone."

Rut's not trying to rub anybody's nose wrong, and I think it's fair to say that he did do his job. He is simply reporting the FACT that girls ball sucks in his neck of the woods, and does not get the administrative attention it needs to be worthwhile. The same is true in my neck of the woods. I don't like doing girls games, either. Whatever the reason, the quality of play is terrible and officiating it is no fun. But I do it b/c I'm assigned to the game and I do the best job I can every time out.

Maybe I see Rut's true point simply b/c I'm in the same boat, but I think you're way too quick to take offense, or to accuse him of whining and not doing his job.

Chuck

[Hawks Coach]

I am originally from Illinois, I go back every other year and watch a Holiday tournament with 32 boys teams and 32 girls teams from all over the state. Never have I seen the level of play about which Jrut complains. Do the girls have less overall skill level than the high-flying boys teams? Absolutely. Are they poorly coached, exhibiting apathy, failing to run anything resembling offense or defense? Not in my experience. I go to these games to see what the better teams/coaches are doing because the girls game is different than the boys game and requires a different approach. But in the end, it is still bball and it is played quite well.

So yes, I do take offense at his comments and I believe that they are completely without basis having seen the same teams he sees (or could see if he wanted to). This is not his first anti-gball rant, and it may not be his last. If he is going to demean an entire group of hardworking basketball players and coaches, I am going to be firm in defending them and what they do.

[ChuckElias]

All right. . . Let me start again.

Rut's entire post would've been fine if he'd just said "This is why I need to leave girls basketball in Chicago alone."

Coach, respectfully, you missed my point. Rut was NOT trying to disparage an entire gender. He was simply making the point that girls ball in his area, whatever that area is, stinks (especially when compared to boys basketball). I can make the same claim. Nobody is saying that girls shouldn't play basketball. But for some officials, it just isn't rewarding or fun to work those games. That was the whole point. Nothing more.

So yes, I do take offense at his comments and I believe that they are completely without basis having seen the same teams he sees (or could see if he wanted to).

Finally, coach, if you've really seen the same games that Rut has seen, how have you come to such drastically different conclusions? You've seen the same teams play, but you think the games have only a slightly lower skill level than boys; while Rut thinks they're nearly unwatchable. Since Rut's actually working the games, I'd have to think that he has a pretty good perspective on them. Maybe you should consider the possiblilty that the girls who play should be taught, encouraged, applauded and supported vigorously; but that -- at least in Rut's neck of the woods -- they actually stink. I don't think there's any problem with admitting that (if it's the truth), and I don't think there's any reason to take offense at it.

Chuck

[paulis]

What is the purpose of the original post? Sorry JRut, but this is the nature of our vocation. I would prefer to have all games that ended in 65 minutes like the boys JV game I had last week. I would prefer that I have no more 115 minutes games like last nights boys JV. But that does not jade me. Regardless, I am excited about this evenings contest and what it might bring!

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by paulis
What is the purpose of the original post?

Like a lot of other posts (about obnoxious coaches or bad partners), I think Rut was just letting off some frustration. In his case, the frustration was from officiating a game which "showcased" inferior skills. Why isn't he allowed to do that, simply b/c he's complaining about a game played by girls? I really don't get all the negative feeling his post has dredged up.

Chuck

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Rut's entire post would've been fine if he'd just said "This is why I need to leave girls basketball in Chicago alone."
He was simply making the point that girls ball in his area, whatever that area is, stinks (especially when compared to boys basketball).

No, his post would not have been fine or accurate with that statement. There are good teams in Chicago, and I have seen them play. Not all of them, and yes some administrators will tolerate low level coaching in the girls arean that they don't tolerate for boys. By the way USA Today has one girls team (Chicago area) and ZERO boys teams from IL ranked in the top 15 - gotta go to #24 on the boys side of the house to find a ranked IL team. In the midwest rankings, two Chicago area girls teams, one boys team. Who's playing the high level ball? Or is all girls ball nationally that bad (refer to gender disparagement!)?

Coach, respectfully, you missed my point. Rut was NOT trying to disparage an entire gender.

Chuck, respectfully, you are relatively new (August 2001) and I suggest you refer back to previous Jrut rants on the subject of girls bball over the past two years. I have seen consistent disparagement of a gender. I see no other purpose for his post, and I doubt I would see a similar post on boys ball if he was party to a travesty on that side of the court (and those do happen, too, although maybe not as much). I can't believe he has never had a poorly played, poorly coached, poorly administered boys game, but I will bet that he never posted something like "that's why I shouldn't ref boys ball!"

Finally, coach, if you've really seen the same games that Rut has seen, how have you come to such drastically different conclusions? You've seen the same teams play, but you think the games have only a slightly lower skill level than boys; while Rut thinks they're nearly unwatchable. Since Rut's actually working the games, I'd have to think that he has a pretty good perspective on them. Maybe you should consider the possibility that the girls who play should be taught, encouraged, applauded and supported vigorously; but that -- at least in Rut's neck of the woods -- they actually stink. I don't think there's any problem with admitting that (if it's the truth), and I don't think there's any reason to take offense at it.

I have not seen the same games, but I have seen Illinois (and even Chicago, Illinois) girls ball and it can be quite well played. I think its a load of $%^& to say that Chicago does not have quality girls ball. And having gone to watch teams to observe strategy, I can assure you that his caracterizations of the game he witnessed are not typical of girls ball in IL. You may not think much of coach's rule knowledge, but please give us credit (at least some of us) for understanding the game and knowing what is happening. I don't watch these games as a casual fan but as a student and teacher of the game, and I like both girls and boys ball.

And I have seen numerous games where one boys team blows out another and it degenerates into the same kind of mindless activites - stupid lobs into the third row, threes being jacked by centers with a 10% shooting average, etc. The junk may be more athletic, but it is still junk at any level.

Nobody is saying that girls shouldn't play basketball. But for some officials, it just isn't rewarding or fun to work those games.

Fine - but there is no need to unload in this post about the poor quality of play and leave readers with the impression that this is a problem with girls ball in general, and only in girls ball. If you don't like it, don't do it, but don't dedicate this space to your disparaging comments about how one gender plays the game. Say what you will Chuck, but if you study your history on this board, you will see that I am right about the bias in Jruts statements. And they don't hold up to independent observation, IMO.

[Edited by Hawks Coach on Dec 18th, 2001 at 01:55 PM]

[Brian Watson]

I think many of you missed the larger point.

He was raked over the coals from the assignor on whether he could handle the level of ball played, when it appears there was no reason to. Who refs in jeans? Why wait for an announcer, I am sorry, but when it is game time, it is time to go. The entire menanagement of the event sounds non-existent.

And to top it off, it sounds liek the teams were not interested in playing; this always makes for a long night. It sounds like the assignor thinks way too much of his little tourney.


For my 2 cents worth - I think we all have levels of ball we try to avoid. It is not bad, it is just our preference. Rut has sworn off girls ball. I have a huge aversion to all but very select summer ball (and a growing discontentment for middle school ball). We all have our quirks and preferences and we should not be chastised for it. I am sure there will be someone very happy to step up and work any girls games he leaves behind, just as he will be happy to not work them.