My Two Cents....
 

I grew up in central Illinois. It was my experience that the girls teams were often more skilled in the fundamentals of the game. The boys were trying to play like the pro's while the girls played sound fundamental ball. In fact, when I first got the opportunity to coach, My first book I bought was "Competitive Drills for Winning Basketball" written by Jan Lahodny who at that time, was head girl's basketball coach at Victoria High School in Texas. I found the drills and philosophy that she offered were more suited to my team that did not play "above the rim" like so many boys coach's book were written for.
Now, as an official, I take any and all games they give me. I love the game, boys, girls, Jr. High whatever. I'm not passing judgment on JRut, I don't know him. That's just my take on the situation.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hawks Coach

Quote:

I will bet that he never posted something like "that's why I shouldn't ref boys ball!"

Maybe not, but if he had, would you have come rushing to the defense of boys basketball everywhere? Maybe you would, but I doubt it. Because we would all think to ourselves, "Jeez, boys ball around here is pretty good. Too bad Rut has to slog thru that crap out there." And that would be the end of it. But for some reason, you have taken his post to be an indictment of girls ball everywhere, when it is CLEARLY not that.

Sigh. Coach, the precise place or general area that I mention is NOT the point. I don't know exactly where Rut's recent games are. My only point in narrowing it to Illinois, and then to Chicago, was to point out to you that Rut's post is not an indictment of girls ball everywhere. But merely a comment on the quality of the games that he has witnessed in his area, wherever that area is.

Quote:

Fine - but there is no need to unload in this post about the poor quality of play and leave readers with the impression that this is a problem with girls ball in general, and only in girls ball.

No offense, Coach, but apparently you're the only reader that came away with that impression. Nobody else has rushed to defend girls everywhere. Paulis think Rut's a whiner, but he doesn't say that Rut's a misogynist. Why? Because most of us understand what Rut's saying. Girls ball in his neck of the woods sucks, even though it might be great, fantastic, immensely entertaining everywhere else in the country.

I think you just need to say, "Rut's frustrated his last two girls games and wants to be done with them." And leave it at that. He's not saying girls don't deserve the opportunity to play. You're honestly just overreacting to this one.

Chuck

I can hardly wait until Rut reads the responses to his little vent. :)

I know. How did I get to be Rut's defense attorney? :confused:

chuck

An unenviable position to say the least! :D

Let me make myself clear.
 

I cannot address everything and I will not try to. I made this statement or comments about a particular situation. It was not an inditement on women's or girl's basketball across my state or in general. But the reality is that girl's basketball is under appreaciated and under supported. And because of that, things like what I discribed, this tends to happen all over Illinois, and I am sure any other place that boys and girls play the same or similar sports. Even the fans are worse in girls games because people still look at girls as fragile little beings and think every time they get knocked down you should call something. Boys get knocked down and if you call something everyone is complaining.

This was a Christmas Tournament, and it seemed like not a sole gave a damn about anything. Nobody took pride in anything, not the fans, not the administration and not even the assignor. The officials as a whole were not up to the standards of anyone that gives a damn, and if they did they would not be officiating in JEANS!!!!!! Where the hell have any of you seen an official that did a game in JEANS? This is my 6th year of being an official, 5th doing any kind of varsity on a regular basis and I have never seen a 8th grade official step into the gym and dare do a game in JEANS!!!! I have never seen a coach at any level just see their team get destroyed and not call one timeout, not make one substitution or not call one play!!! There was many times the two timeouts and the in-between quarters, and the losing coach did not even huddle up and tell the players a single thing. WHY IN THE HELL ARE YOU HAVING A PROGRAM IF YOU DO NOT CARE!!!! And because of this attitude, no wonder the kids did not give a crap. Would you, the adults didn't?

I have never done the weakest of boys tournaments of any kind and see this kind of lack of enthusiasm for a contest of any kind. I am sure it happens, but nobody gave a damn. Not even the winning team took any pride in getting better. The winning coach was encouraging her players to shoot 3s instead of working on an offense or playing good defense. This was a complete and utter joke. I could have stayed home and had a V8.

Girls basketball in general stinks period. It is not because the players are not talented, it is not because they do not know how to play, it is because communities and schools could give $hit about whether girls play or not. I think the only reason they have a program is because of Title IX. If the law did not allow for equal accomidations, many girls programs would not be around.

And if you want to know the truth, I was drilled about my experience and I had to put up with this. If I realized that no one gave a damn I would have rather stayed home. To even get the worse boys basketball in the state, I have to have more qualifications, more experience and a higher rating. I can roll out of bed on a bad day and get a girls game. And in my area, you had to be very qualified to even think you would ever step on the court for a boys varsity game. All they needed is a warm body for a girls game. And if you think I am lying, ask some Illinois officials how many conferences for both boys and girls have 3 Person officiating crews. All most all the conferences that I do, the boys have 3 Person crews for all games, the girls sides are very reluctant and have not approved money to allow them to pay 3 officials.

Look, I can go on and on about this but I am not going to. I have better things to do. I have had some bad experiences with boys varsity, but those are far and few between. I have never officiated a game that no one seem to care even the players. And the way this tournmant is being run, it seems that no one cares. Maybe it was just these teams, but if this was a sales pitch for me to continue to do girls games, it was a big failure. And that is why I am taking a serious look at what I want to do in the future. I never grew up thinking I ever wanted to advance in women's basketball, and experiences like these to not help me change my mind. I see time and time again why many official choose the boy's and men's sides. At least the administrations, players and coaches give a damn. I personally do not know what anyone was trying to accomplish on Monday night.

Peace

Re: Let me make myself clear.
 

Rut - this may be the case in Illinois (in fact, when I went to HS in the Chicago area in the 60s, we didn't even have girls basketball!), but it's certainly not the case everywhere. Here in Oregon, and especially in the Portland area, girls basketball is almost as big a deal as boys. Part of it comes from having some excellent programs, such as Oregon City, which had the number one ranked girls team in the nation just a few years back. In fact, their conference (3 Rivers) and another suburban conference (Metro) has produced numerous all-American team members, one WNBA and Olympic team member (Katy Steding) and a whole truckload of Division I players. Some of the regular season games are sellouts!

While many may think the quality of play isn't at the same level as the boys, at least you get to see passing, screening, cutting and dribbling instead of a bunch of Shaq and Michael wannabees trying to dunk on every play. OK, that's an exaggeration, but frankly, most of the girls games around here are satisfying to watch, and officiate.

Now, if we can just get them to stop chanting "ball, ball, ball, ball, ball, ball, ball."

Hawk Coach.
 

I had to address you specifically. Lighten up please!!!!! This is just a post about an experience and I just wanted to see what anyone else thought. I was just venting for the most part about a game or situation that I did not particularly enjoy.

I think we need to leave the PC feelings at home. I am a product of a teacher that does nothing but teach about family and Gender Roles in her profession. My Mother is a Ph.D. in Sociology and all my life I have had to challenge my thoughts about gender, race and any other though with a whole view way of thinking. I am an eqalitarian, but that does not mean I must love or respect everything because it is there in front of me. I am an official and I have every right to not like one level over another. Last time I checked, we all do. I know several officials that do not want to even do boy's games at all at any level. But you do not see me thinking that they are nuts. I am sure you have friends or had friends (I do not know your marriage or sexual preferences, so I apologize if this does not directly apply to you :)) that liked women that you are not attracted too. Well, officiating is much like that. Some guys just do not like to even do varsity level, because it brings more pressure, more intensity and they get home later than they would doing a JH game. More power to them.

My point is I have always done both boy's and girl's basketball. I got my varsity start at girl's basketball and in my state we are not required to do both (most times) in the same night at all. Both play on different nights and for those conferences that play both in the same night, the assignors are not the same person and have officials of very different experience levels and qualifications. I love basketball in general, and if I had a choice of not working at all, I would rather be doing a game period. But if someone ever told me to choose or else, I would choose boy's and men's basketball every single time. When I started officiating, there was no WNBA and Women's Basketball was not hardly ever on TV. So my expectations was on the Men's side of the game. I first wanted to be in the NBA, before I changed my attitude and just would settle for the college game.

I officiate to satisfy the void that I left when I stopped being an athlete in HS. I always wondered how those officials at the Men's NCAA Final Four got there. I was not a skilled enough athlete or tall enough, so officiating is what I choose to do to stay close to the game. And because I did not play girl's basketball and the game is a bit different, I am not fasinated by it the way I am by watching Duke-Michigan on TV.

Because I am an official, it is not my responsibility to coach or teach girls how to play the game. Not to say I would never coach, but I would never have a problem with coaching girls at some point. I just do not like the fact that no one supports them nearly as much as the girls. Hell, if women supported and went to girls contests at the rate they did with boys, it would be very similar to the boys game in the support system arena. Hell you can bearly get the girls parents to come watch them, let alone anyone else.

And let me also say this to you. I live in a state that doing both boys and girls basketball can be very time consuming. Boys and Girls play on separate nights, and doing both means that I would be working more than 4 times a week. I do not have the time like I used to to devote that much time to both. And because of that and many other facts, I stick primarily to boy's basketball and only work maybe 3 nights out of the week. And I also love the boy's game, because the pressure is higher, the crowds are 10 times as big and the game is more challenging for me as an official. I hate blowouts no matter what level, but you do not have that happen as much on the boys game. I have done 15 varsity games and have not had one blowout or game with over 15 points in the final score. Even the games that looked like they were going to be blowouts, were competive the entire way. All the girls game I have had have been blowouts except for one. And that game was nearly decided at the buzzer.

I feel so glad that you feel you need to stand up for women everywhere. I am so glad you feel that you need to convince the masses about how good girls teams are or how they are not. I really do not know or care what girls basketball is in other states, because I am not going to Missouri, Indiana, Iowa or Wisconsin to find out. I live in Illinois, and I do not just officiate in just the Chicago area. I grew up in West Central Illinois and there are teams there that Chicago could not beat on one of their bad days. So my comments have nothing to do with Illinois. Actually, if I lived in the area I grew up, I would still being doing girls basketball. Some of the most conpetitive basketball on the girls side in the state.

Peace

Jrut
In two posts, you manage both to say what I have heard from you many times and what I have never heard. I am confused overall as to what you think now, other than you don't like the lack of administrative support for girls ball in some places.

What I have heard in other posts and now this one:
What I have never heard before, and what actually confuses me because it is hard to reconcile with much of the other things you say on the subject:
I am glad to hear you say this, and that is much of what I was saying.

I do not feel compelled to stand up for women everywhere or to make a PC stand. I did not start out as a fan of the women's game. I came to like it because of the ethic of the players I coach, the solid team play and fundamentals that I see, etc. So when I see statements like the original, I feel compelled to respond that all girls ball is not like you make it sound in most of your posts (and you have made anti-girls ball posts in the past).

I do not expect you to ref girls ball if you don't like it. I just object to what I see as some compelling need to bring a negative attitude about the game every time you mention it. If I over-reacted, so be it. But I firmly believe that lack of support from the officiating side of the business is just as bad as lack of support in smoe schools and school districtss - it shortchanges some great athletes who play a great game.

So you wanted some reaction to see what others think - this is what I think!

I do not expect you to agree with me.
 

You can go on and on about what you have thought I have said in the past. The fact still remains, that I and many other officials have the right to our opinions about what we like to do. I do not have to like the same ice cream because YOU think it is the bomb. I do not have to where the same cloths because you think one type is more classy than another brand.

We all have choices and have opinions. And if you think what I said was "anti-girl," then again you have a right to your opinion. I personally do not care what you think. And the more you move up, the more you will have to choose, because the powers that be think enough of both to think that both games are completely different. You do not see Ed Hightower, Ted Hillary or Teddy Valentine doing Women's NCAA do you? Just like you do not see Patty Brodrick or the many male officials that do Women's NCAA doing both either. There is a reason, and I am sorry that you feel that anyone that chooses to make a comment against something, it has to be viewed in a larger context. I do not like umpiring softball compared to umpiring baseball, so are you going to give me a lecture about the gender issues surrounding that (BTW, I have done Men's Fast-Pitch Softball and I do not like that either)?

The Men's and boy's game is faster, more athletic and more intense. Because the reality is that women do not jump, run or are not as quick as boy's. When was the last time you saw a girl dunk in a real game, and it was not on TV (a Tennessee Player did that last year)? Now are the girls probably more fundamental on many levels, yes. But that still does not change the fact for me and many others like myself enjoy the game above the rim or as close to it as possible. I like the fact that just because the boys falls hard to the floor, no one is thinking, "oh you poor little fragile thing" everytime a boy hits the floor. People in this society are used to boys and men having contact in not just basketball, so the fans take all these sterotypes to the basketball court and expect you as an official to protect that clumbsy girl that tried to dribble thru 4 defenders stand still. If a boy does that, they tell him, "why are you taking on the team."

I am so sick and tired of officiating games with girls and a girl gets knocked down in some way, whether it be by a defender or not and start crying uncontrollably, but two seconds after she is helped off the court, she comes back in the game. You would have thought the sky just fell. But in a boy's game the same contact will happen, he will fall to the floor just as hard if not harder, and try to get himself up and still play. You have to almost force the boy to not play, while the girls you do not.

This statement is not so much about girls, but the way our society views women and the way women view themselves. And if that was not the case, then that is way I love having women coaches during girls games. At least they feel like they want to be there.

Everything I just said just scratches the surface about what I feel and many others feel about girls basketball. But the reality is that I will still be doing them to some extent, but I sure as hell will not be knocking down doors to do them. And I know that I am not the only one that feels this way. The thing is I said it and others did not have the guts to say it.

Maybe if I grew up watching girls basketball the way I watched or played basketball, I would probably have a different attitude. But when I have called 25 fouls in the first half of a girls basketball game, and both coaches are still crying about us calling more, girls basketball has a major problem with the way they precieve girls playing. I have never had that many fouls where at some point the coaches did not turn some of that attention on the players on the floor or adjust something to stop getting fouls called. And I am not talking about the touch foul variety, I am talking about the knocked completely to the floor type of fouls and the coaches complaining we still need to call much more.

If administrations cannot not hire coaches that are competent enough for girls basketball to realize what is really happening on the floor, then my behind needs to stay away from it. And that is because the most incompetent coaches are almost always on the girls side. And the reasons are because they do not hire coaches that have been around or paid their dues the way they do on the boy's side. Not very different from the officials that do the games too. And yes this included myself that did almost 60 girls varsity games in my SECOND year of basketball. And what made that so bad was that I was doing varsity girls games with other SECOND and THREE year officials. And when I did my first varsity boys games, I was always working with 5 or more year veterans. Now you tell me who cares about who the most and why it translates onto the court?


Peace

As I said above, we agree on most points, including your lack of desire to ref girls ball being valid. I do not question the reasons you offer in your most recent statements - there are clearly differences between NCAA men and women, differences between boys and girls at HS level in terms of athleticism, style of play, pace, etc. Every ref should decide what levels they wish to officiate - I may not have understood that two years ago when I first joined this board, but I clearly do now and accept it.

I also agree that the girls frequently receive second tier coaches, play with minimal game administration and fan support, and have parents that are afraid their baby will get hurt. I fight that last tendency as a girls AAU coach constantly, but I tell girls and parents repeatedly that high level basketball is a physical game and bodies will go flying and, at times, players will get injured (I have three players with broken bones, plus one badly sprained ankle and one sprained knee since September!). If they can't handle this aspect of the game, they need to find a non-contact sport!

My objection was merely to your representation initially that the girls game has no structured offense, etc, as well as your later statement that "Girls basketball in general stinks." I do not think that what you have said since making those statements is at all in agreement with those early statements, and I agree with most of what you say in your later posts. Girls ball at times stinks (so does boys, though probably not as often) and some girls teams are poorly coached,unorganized, etc - so was my son's boys middle school team (which was coached by a guy who knew the game but had not paid his dues either - maybe he will learn and move up). But girls basketball frequently does not stink and is very organized - it may not be what you want to ref, but that has to do with the athleticism, style, and pace of the game, not its quality.

I have never said you were anti girl, just anti girls ball, and I have seen little in your posts to change this opinion - so be it if we differ. However, I would never suggest that my son's school should not have a boys basketball program or that the boys learned nothing nor gained nothing from their experience, even though they probably looked as bad as the worst girls teams I have seen (except for the talent of the participants). It was some of the worst hoops I have ever seen, but having no program at all would have been far worse. You state a belief that Title IX created a large number of inferior basketball programs. I infer from much of what you said I your initial post about the weak team you saw that you believe that these programs should not exist. I believe they should exist and need to be improved.

I think that this is a fundamental difference that reflects your anti-girls basketball bias and my pro girls basketball bias. I should add that I came to girls ball thinking many of the same things you appear at times to think about the quality of play. I first swore that I would only stay until I got a good AAU boys team or a MS boys team. I have stayed because I found those early opinions to be wrong. Working with these kids has been great, and they have proven much more coachable than many (not all!) boys. On top of that, I am working in a great organization which provides terrific support.

We have a lot of new officials who may find the girls game very rewarding to officiate, and may decide that an early option for doing varsity ball is going the girls route. I presented the opposite point of view from some of the statements in your early posts (listed generally above). I believed (and continue to believe) that such statements do not reflect what is happening in girls basketball. I sincerely hope that the girls game can have more officials of the type who are serious enough to frequent these boards, as well as continue to improve the caliber of coaching across all districts. And if it is not for you, I am completely sincere in saying don't go near it, don't ever ref it - there are plenty of other options out there for you. But if you choose to ref a girls game here or there, please don't feel compelled to put it down by saying it "in general stinks."

[Edited by Hawks Coach on Dec 19th, 2001 at 05:30 PM]

Not that big of an issue.
 

If no one cares, the program should not excist. It does not matter if it is girls or boys. And if you read the ENTIRE statement, you will see that I was talking about only one of the programs. I was not talking about both programs. And I was mainly talking about Team B, who has a boys program that seems to be just as bad. And yes, I think the same about the boy's team.

You do not have to agree with me, I do not expect you to. Girls basketball (no matter where I have been) stinks compared to boy's games. I have a right to that opinion and it is just that, AN O.P.I.N.I.O.N!!! You may think it is the greatest thing since the invention of the wheel, I do not.

The reason I feel this way does not have everything to do with the participants, it is the entire package. The fans, bands, atmosphere, the intensity or anything else that makes the game enjoyable to officiate. It is not different in many ways of why I do not like doing Freshman or JV games that are not associated with a varsity game.

Look, we are just going to have to disagree on this one. I am sure you are a good coach and I am glad that you have a passion for the girls that you coach. But you have the right to coach which level you like and enjoy, just like I have the right to choose what is good for me.

We do not have officials now, mainly because they do not set parameters around this vocation in the first place. And if I am going to spend gas money or take time away from my job or other activities, I sure as hell would like to do it, doing something that I enjoy. Not going to a game I dread for the most part, because of all those things that surround it. And if officials were required to be on the same level at girls games than at boy's games, then I and my partners would not be thought of as the "greatest" officials that ever stepped on "their" court that year. And believe me, there is nothing special about the guys I work with or me, other than we do things the best way we know how. It is a shame that one side has such a big desparity in quality of officials and coaching across the board.

I stopped doing Pop Warner football, Men's fast-pitch softball, Summer baseball and softball all for simalar reasons that I stated about Girls basketball. And at least 3 of those were Male sports. So what now are you going to say to me, those do not stink either?

Peace

Re: Let me make myself clear.
 

Jeff --

Can you email me with the name of the assigner, teams and tourney? Thanks.

[email protected]

:)

You know something,
I think I would have known who submitted this post even if he hadn't indicated his name. It's funny how you get to know someone's character without seeing them work or ever having met them. Basketball is a great game and we should go out and try to enjoy every game we are assigned. I hope I never develop such a superior , arrogant attitude. So far after over 40 years in the game I still enjoy all levels of play and I have worked them all.
Pistol