This is why I need to leave girls basketball alone. I had a Girls Varsity Christmas Tournament just recently and I think this was the lowest experience of my officiating career.

Examples of the type of night it was:

Pre-game:

1. Suppose to be 3 officials, no warning just two of us show up.

2. No announcer for several minutes. This is not a major problem at all, but they did not want to start the game until he showed up. So he waltzes in after we have been waiting on him for 5 minutes or so and then does not have the starting line-ups for the game to announce.

Game Starts:

1. This is a game between a team that is ranked, and a team that has no business still having a program.

2. The ranked team is the only team that wants to play (Team A). Team B only has one girl that even cares and is the biggest girl on the floor, but she has no clue what she is doing in the first place.

3. Do we have coaches? I had to ask myself this question all night. We did not have an offense that I could see run by either team. Team B's coach did not say a word the whole night it seemed. Not to the her players, not to us about anything. I do not think that Team B's coach even subbed for any of the starters, and she had at least 5 bench players on the team.

4. The game was a blow out. This is not in itself a problem, but when we have a 60 point game, and the winning team is just shooting 3 point shots, just to shoot them, how bad can it get. Team A would have fast break opportunities, but seemed to pass them up to shoot 3s. Not just fast break opportunities, they would have had easy layups and passed those up, stepped back to shoot 3 point shots that they could not make. I think we had a stretch of 3s from Team A that had to be about 15 shots. I think they only made one or two. This had to have only been in a 2 or 3 minutes stretch in the game. This game was completely played like a Summer rec. league game. No offenses, hardly could see a organized defense, every though it started as a 2-3 zone on both sides.


I could not get home in time enough to be happy at all. This game was awful and everything surrounding it was that way. I have had summer tournmants that were better than this. Even one of the officials in the game before me, had an official that did the game in black jeans. Yes you heard me correct, BLACK JEANS. I could tell by the little jean patch on the back of them. And I will drilled about whether I could do a varsity game with this assignor? I guess I will chalk this up to experience.

Peace

Wow, sounds like a bad night from start to end!
I'll agree that you're more likely to see a big blowout at
a girls game but it seems to me that a lot of these things
could have happened in a boys game. What I'm hoping is that
you had your game face on for the entire contest and gave
this game all you had. I do some HS girls games & I
agree that on rare occasion they can be painful. But
there's nothing I hate more than having a partner who
clearly thinks working a girls game is beneath them.

Dan is exactly right. A partner didn't show up. The PA announcer didn't show up. A team got blown out. What does any of that have to do with the sex of the players? My advice is that if you feel this way, don't accept any girls games and leave them for someone who would really like to work them.

JMHO

Yes it can, Girls JV game. I had one the other day. We must have had 50 Jump balls (AP). Everytime team A got the Ball, team B tied them up. Team B didn't protect the ball all to well either. This is nothing against girls basketball. Some of the games are very good. This just happened to be one of those games !!!

JRutledge,
I usually enjoy reading your post and have learned much from you and the others here. This time, however, I think you are dead wrong. Nothing you described is limited to the girls game. I went to see a 8th grade boys game a couple of weeks ago...home team was up by 25 at the end of the first quarter. If the son of a dear freind had not asked me to go see him, I would not have stayed to see that the final margin of victory was 68.

If you hate the girls game so much, do them a favor and refuse to call them. I'm not questioning you professionalism, but it is human nature not to put 100% in something you despise doing. They deserve better, JMO.

IMO, these things can happen at boys games, but they tend to happen at girls games. We have a consistent problem in my area with lack of security, inadequate facilities for changing our clothes (for a crew with men and women), locked doors with no keys to be found, etc. This is a game management problem. Obviously (to me anyway), the schools don't take the games as seriously as they do boys games.

FWIW, I quit doing girls games two years ago because I don't enjoy the basketball. The quality is much lower and I am happier not doing them. Jeff, you might want to think about this.

The big difference here is varsity contest vs. 8th grade. I have never seen an 8th grade game have anything done in the same scope as a varsity game. Apples and oranges, IMO.

I have to say something Jrut - your post frankly offends me. Blowouts? Montrose Christian HS boys team currently has an AVERAGE margin of victory over 60 points per game - guess they must be a girls team in disguise, or simply playing girls teams. Poor coaching, poor support for girls ball - it is a problem because some schools put no resources into girls ball. So lets give these girls substandard officials, timers, gyms, supervision etc. to keep it on a par with their coaching. Let's make sure that everything is bad for them simply because some people at some schools still don't see a value in their girl's sports programs.

I used to coach boys and now coach exclusively girls. There are definitely differences in the two (definitely more tie-ups in gball!). But my girls show up for every game and compete, much more than I can say for half the boys I coached. I had to bench my entire starting line-up for lack of effort on more than one occasion with my boys. In two years and over 150 games, only done that once with my girls. We run offenses, press breaks, presses, organized half-court defenses, inbounds plays, laned fast breaks - this is not an issue of the players but the coaches. My son's middle school team never ran an organized offense or defense all year last year because most of the players didn't care and the coach couldn't get it done. Even my rec teams were more organized.

You have always stated your opposition to reffing girls games, so please stay off the court with that attitude. But don't blame it on the girls.

Quit your whining and do your job. I think all of us, whether officials, coaches, parents, or whatever, have been involved in games that rubbed us the wrong way. That's life. If I happen to be involved in anything close to what you had to endure, I go out of my way to make the experience a positive one for somebody. Educate a player on a rule, explain a strange call to a fan, etc.

Ok, here's my two cents. Rut's entire post would've been fine if he'd just said "This is why I need to leave girls basketball in Illinois alone."

Rut's not trying to rub anybody's nose wrong, and I think it's fair to say that he did do his job. He is simply reporting the FACT that girls ball sucks in his neck of the woods, and does not get the administrative attention it needs to be worthwhile. The same is true in my neck of the woods. I don't like doing girls games, either. Whatever the reason, the quality of play is terrible and officiating it is no fun. But I do it b/c I'm assigned to the game and I do the best job I can every time out.

Maybe I see Rut's true point simply b/c I'm in the same boat, but I think you're way too quick to take offense, or to accuse him of whining and not doing his job.

Chuck

I am originally from Illinois, I go back every other year and watch a Holiday tournament with 32 boys teams and 32 girls teams from all over the state. Never have I seen the level of play about which Jrut complains. Do the girls have less overall skill level than the high-flying boys teams? Absolutely. Are they poorly coached, exhibiting apathy, failing to run anything resembling offense or defense? Not in my experience. I go to these games to see what the better teams/coaches are doing because the girls game is different than the boys game and requires a different approach. But in the end, it is still bball and it is played quite well.

So yes, I do take offense at his comments and I believe that they are completely without basis having seen the same teams he sees (or could see if he wanted to). This is not his first anti-gball rant, and it may not be his last. If he is going to demean an entire group of hardworking basketball players and coaches, I am going to be firm in defending them and what they do.

All right. . . Let me start again.

Rut's entire post would've been fine if he'd just said "This is why I need to leave girls basketball in Chicago alone."

Coach, respectfully, you missed my point. Rut was NOT trying to disparage an entire gender. He was simply making the point that girls ball in his area, whatever that area is, stinks (especially when compared to boys basketball). I can make the same claim. Nobody is saying that girls shouldn't play basketball. But for some officials, it just isn't rewarding or fun to work those games. That was the whole point. Nothing more.



Finally, coach, if you've really seen the same games that Rut has seen, how have you come to such drastically different conclusions? You've seen the same teams play, but you think the games have only a slightly lower skill level than boys; while Rut thinks they're nearly unwatchable. Since Rut's actually working the games, I'd have to think that he has a pretty good perspective on them. Maybe you should consider the possiblilty that the girls who play should be taught, encouraged, applauded and supported vigorously; but that -- at least in Rut's neck of the woods -- they actually stink. I don't think there's any problem with admitting that (if it's the truth), and I don't think there's any reason to take offense at it.

Chuck

What is the purpose of the original post? Sorry JRut, but this is the nature of our vocation. I would prefer to have all games that ended in 65 minutes like the boys JV game I had last week. I would prefer that I have no more 115 minutes games like last nights boys JV. But that does not jade me. Regardless, I am excited about this evenings contest and what it might bring!

Like a lot of other posts (about obnoxious coaches or bad partners), I think Rut was just letting off some frustration. In his case, the frustration was from officiating a game which "showcased" inferior skills. Why isn't he allowed to do that, simply b/c he's complaining about a game played by girls? I really don't get all the negative feeling his post has dredged up.

Chuck

No, his post would not have been fine or accurate with that statement. There are good teams in Chicago, and I have seen them play. Not all of them, and yes some administrators will tolerate low level coaching in the girls arean that they don't tolerate for boys. By the way USA Today has one girls team (Chicago area) and ZERO boys teams from IL ranked in the top 15 - gotta go to #24 on the boys side of the house to find a ranked IL team. In the midwest rankings, two Chicago area girls teams, one boys team. Who's playing the high level ball? Or is all girls ball nationally that bad (refer to gender disparagement!)?

Chuck, respectfully, you are relatively new (August 2001) and I suggest you refer back to previous Jrut rants on the subject of girls bball over the past two years. I have seen consistent disparagement of a gender. I see no other purpose for his post, and I doubt I would see a similar post on boys ball if he was party to a travesty on that side of the court (and those do happen, too, although maybe not as much). I can't believe he has never had a poorly played, poorly coached, poorly administered boys game, but I will bet that he never posted something like "that's why I shouldn't ref boys ball!"


I have not seen the same games, but I have seen Illinois (and even Chicago, Illinois) girls ball and it can be quite well played. I think its a load of $%^& to say that Chicago does not have quality girls ball. And having gone to watch teams to observe strategy, I can assure you that his caracterizations of the game he witnessed are not typical of girls ball in IL. You may not think much of coach's rule knowledge, but please give us credit (at least some of us) for understanding the game and knowing what is happening. I don't watch these games as a casual fan but as a student and teacher of the game, and I like both girls and boys ball.

And I have seen numerous games where one boys team blows out another and it degenerates into the same kind of mindless activites - stupid lobs into the third row, threes being jacked by centers with a 10% shooting average, etc. The junk may be more athletic, but it is still junk at any level.


Fine - but there is no need to unload in this post about the poor quality of play and leave readers with the impression that this is a problem with girls ball in general, and only in girls ball. If you don't like it, don't do it, but don't dedicate this space to your disparaging comments about how one gender plays the game. Say what you will Chuck, but if you study your history on this board, you will see that I am right about the bias in Jruts statements. And they don't hold up to independent observation, IMO.

[Edited by Hawks Coach on Dec 18th, 2001 at 01:55 PM]

I think many of you missed the larger point.

He was raked over the coals from the assignor on whether he could handle the level of ball played, when it appears there was no reason to. Who refs in jeans? Why wait for an announcer, I am sorry, but when it is game time, it is time to go. The entire menanagement of the event sounds non-existent.

And to top it off, it sounds liek the teams were not interested in playing; this always makes for a long night. It sounds like the assignor thinks way too much of his little tourney.


For my 2 cents worth - I think we all have levels of ball we try to avoid. It is not bad, it is just our preference. Rut has sworn off girls ball. I have a huge aversion to all but very select summer ball (and a growing discontentment for middle school ball). We all have our quirks and preferences and we should not be chastised for it. I am sure there will be someone very happy to step up and work any girls games he leaves behind, just as he will be happy to not work them.

My Two Cents....
 

I grew up in central Illinois. It was my experience that the girls teams were often more skilled in the fundamentals of the game. The boys were trying to play like the pro's while the girls played sound fundamental ball. In fact, when I first got the opportunity to coach, My first book I bought was "Competitive Drills for Winning Basketball" written by Jan Lahodny who at that time, was head girl's basketball coach at Victoria High School in Texas. I found the drills and philosophy that she offered were more suited to my team that did not play "above the rim" like so many boys coach's book were written for.
Now, as an official, I take any and all games they give me. I love the game, boys, girls, Jr. High whatever. I'm not passing judgment on JRut, I don't know him. That's just my take on the situation.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hawks Coach

Quote:

I will bet that he never posted something like "that's why I shouldn't ref boys ball!"

Maybe not, but if he had, would you have come rushing to the defense of boys basketball everywhere? Maybe you would, but I doubt it. Because we would all think to ourselves, "Jeez, boys ball around here is pretty good. Too bad Rut has to slog thru that crap out there." And that would be the end of it. But for some reason, you have taken his post to be an indictment of girls ball everywhere, when it is CLEARLY not that.

Sigh. Coach, the precise place or general area that I mention is NOT the point. I don't know exactly where Rut's recent games are. My only point in narrowing it to Illinois, and then to Chicago, was to point out to you that Rut's post is not an indictment of girls ball everywhere. But merely a comment on the quality of the games that he has witnessed in his area, wherever that area is.

Quote:

Fine - but there is no need to unload in this post about the poor quality of play and leave readers with the impression that this is a problem with girls ball in general, and only in girls ball.

No offense, Coach, but apparently you're the only reader that came away with that impression. Nobody else has rushed to defend girls everywhere. Paulis think Rut's a whiner, but he doesn't say that Rut's a misogynist. Why? Because most of us understand what Rut's saying. Girls ball in his neck of the woods sucks, even though it might be great, fantastic, immensely entertaining everywhere else in the country.

I think you just need to say, "Rut's frustrated his last two girls games and wants to be done with them." And leave it at that. He's not saying girls don't deserve the opportunity to play. You're honestly just overreacting to this one.

Chuck

I can hardly wait until Rut reads the responses to his little vent. :)

I know. How did I get to be Rut's defense attorney? :confused:

chuck

An unenviable position to say the least! :D

Let me make myself clear.
 

I cannot address everything and I will not try to. I made this statement or comments about a particular situation. It was not an inditement on women's or girl's basketball across my state or in general. But the reality is that girl's basketball is under appreaciated and under supported. And because of that, things like what I discribed, this tends to happen all over Illinois, and I am sure any other place that boys and girls play the same or similar sports. Even the fans are worse in girls games because people still look at girls as fragile little beings and think every time they get knocked down you should call something. Boys get knocked down and if you call something everyone is complaining.

This was a Christmas Tournament, and it seemed like not a sole gave a damn about anything. Nobody took pride in anything, not the fans, not the administration and not even the assignor. The officials as a whole were not up to the standards of anyone that gives a damn, and if they did they would not be officiating in JEANS!!!!!! Where the hell have any of you seen an official that did a game in JEANS? This is my 6th year of being an official, 5th doing any kind of varsity on a regular basis and I have never seen a 8th grade official step into the gym and dare do a game in JEANS!!!! I have never seen a coach at any level just see their team get destroyed and not call one timeout, not make one substitution or not call one play!!! There was many times the two timeouts and the in-between quarters, and the losing coach did not even huddle up and tell the players a single thing. WHY IN THE HELL ARE YOU HAVING A PROGRAM IF YOU DO NOT CARE!!!! And because of this attitude, no wonder the kids did not give a crap. Would you, the adults didn't?

I have never done the weakest of boys tournaments of any kind and see this kind of lack of enthusiasm for a contest of any kind. I am sure it happens, but nobody gave a damn. Not even the winning team took any pride in getting better. The winning coach was encouraging her players to shoot 3s instead of working on an offense or playing good defense. This was a complete and utter joke. I could have stayed home and had a V8.

Girls basketball in general stinks period. It is not because the players are not talented, it is not because they do not know how to play, it is because communities and schools could give $hit about whether girls play or not. I think the only reason they have a program is because of Title IX. If the law did not allow for equal accomidations, many girls programs would not be around.

And if you want to know the truth, I was drilled about my experience and I had to put up with this. If I realized that no one gave a damn I would have rather stayed home. To even get the worse boys basketball in the state, I have to have more qualifications, more experience and a higher rating. I can roll out of bed on a bad day and get a girls game. And in my area, you had to be very qualified to even think you would ever step on the court for a boys varsity game. All they needed is a warm body for a girls game. And if you think I am lying, ask some Illinois officials how many conferences for both boys and girls have 3 Person officiating crews. All most all the conferences that I do, the boys have 3 Person crews for all games, the girls sides are very reluctant and have not approved money to allow them to pay 3 officials.

Look, I can go on and on about this but I am not going to. I have better things to do. I have had some bad experiences with boys varsity, but those are far and few between. I have never officiated a game that no one seem to care even the players. And the way this tournmant is being run, it seems that no one cares. Maybe it was just these teams, but if this was a sales pitch for me to continue to do girls games, it was a big failure. And that is why I am taking a serious look at what I want to do in the future. I never grew up thinking I ever wanted to advance in women's basketball, and experiences like these to not help me change my mind. I see time and time again why many official choose the boy's and men's sides. At least the administrations, players and coaches give a damn. I personally do not know what anyone was trying to accomplish on Monday night.

Peace

Re: Let me make myself clear.
 

Rut - this may be the case in Illinois (in fact, when I went to HS in the Chicago area in the 60s, we didn't even have girls basketball!), but it's certainly not the case everywhere. Here in Oregon, and especially in the Portland area, girls basketball is almost as big a deal as boys. Part of it comes from having some excellent programs, such as Oregon City, which had the number one ranked girls team in the nation just a few years back. In fact, their conference (3 Rivers) and another suburban conference (Metro) has produced numerous all-American team members, one WNBA and Olympic team member (Katy Steding) and a whole truckload of Division I players. Some of the regular season games are sellouts!

While many may think the quality of play isn't at the same level as the boys, at least you get to see passing, screening, cutting and dribbling instead of a bunch of Shaq and Michael wannabees trying to dunk on every play. OK, that's an exaggeration, but frankly, most of the girls games around here are satisfying to watch, and officiate.

Now, if we can just get them to stop chanting "ball, ball, ball, ball, ball, ball, ball."

Hawk Coach.
 

I had to address you specifically. Lighten up please!!!!! This is just a post about an experience and I just wanted to see what anyone else thought. I was just venting for the most part about a game or situation that I did not particularly enjoy.

I think we need to leave the PC feelings at home. I am a product of a teacher that does nothing but teach about family and Gender Roles in her profession. My Mother is a Ph.D. in Sociology and all my life I have had to challenge my thoughts about gender, race and any other though with a whole view way of thinking. I am an eqalitarian, but that does not mean I must love or respect everything because it is there in front of me. I am an official and I have every right to not like one level over another. Last time I checked, we all do. I know several officials that do not want to even do boy's games at all at any level. But you do not see me thinking that they are nuts. I am sure you have friends or had friends (I do not know your marriage or sexual preferences, so I apologize if this does not directly apply to you :)) that liked women that you are not attracted too. Well, officiating is much like that. Some guys just do not like to even do varsity level, because it brings more pressure, more intensity and they get home later than they would doing a JH game. More power to them.

My point is I have always done both boy's and girl's basketball. I got my varsity start at girl's basketball and in my state we are not required to do both (most times) in the same night at all. Both play on different nights and for those conferences that play both in the same night, the assignors are not the same person and have officials of very different experience levels and qualifications. I love basketball in general, and if I had a choice of not working at all, I would rather be doing a game period. But if someone ever told me to choose or else, I would choose boy's and men's basketball every single time. When I started officiating, there was no WNBA and Women's Basketball was not hardly ever on TV. So my expectations was on the Men's side of the game. I first wanted to be in the NBA, before I changed my attitude and just would settle for the college game.

I officiate to satisfy the void that I left when I stopped being an athlete in HS. I always wondered how those officials at the Men's NCAA Final Four got there. I was not a skilled enough athlete or tall enough, so officiating is what I choose to do to stay close to the game. And because I did not play girl's basketball and the game is a bit different, I am not fasinated by it the way I am by watching Duke-Michigan on TV.

Because I am an official, it is not my responsibility to coach or teach girls how to play the game. Not to say I would never coach, but I would never have a problem with coaching girls at some point. I just do not like the fact that no one supports them nearly as much as the girls. Hell, if women supported and went to girls contests at the rate they did with boys, it would be very similar to the boys game in the support system arena. Hell you can bearly get the girls parents to come watch them, let alone anyone else.

And let me also say this to you. I live in a state that doing both boys and girls basketball can be very time consuming. Boys and Girls play on separate nights, and doing both means that I would be working more than 4 times a week. I do not have the time like I used to to devote that much time to both. And because of that and many other facts, I stick primarily to boy's basketball and only work maybe 3 nights out of the week. And I also love the boy's game, because the pressure is higher, the crowds are 10 times as big and the game is more challenging for me as an official. I hate blowouts no matter what level, but you do not have that happen as much on the boys game. I have done 15 varsity games and have not had one blowout or game with over 15 points in the final score. Even the games that looked like they were going to be blowouts, were competive the entire way. All the girls game I have had have been blowouts except for one. And that game was nearly decided at the buzzer.

I feel so glad that you feel you need to stand up for women everywhere. I am so glad you feel that you need to convince the masses about how good girls teams are or how they are not. I really do not know or care what girls basketball is in other states, because I am not going to Missouri, Indiana, Iowa or Wisconsin to find out. I live in Illinois, and I do not just officiate in just the Chicago area. I grew up in West Central Illinois and there are teams there that Chicago could not beat on one of their bad days. So my comments have nothing to do with Illinois. Actually, if I lived in the area I grew up, I would still being doing girls basketball. Some of the most conpetitive basketball on the girls side in the state.

Peace

Jrut
In two posts, you manage both to say what I have heard from you many times and what I have never heard. I am confused overall as to what you think now, other than you don't like the lack of administrative support for girls ball in some places.

What I have heard in other posts and now this one:
What I have never heard before, and what actually confuses me because it is hard to reconcile with much of the other things you say on the subject:
I am glad to hear you say this, and that is much of what I was saying.

I do not feel compelled to stand up for women everywhere or to make a PC stand. I did not start out as a fan of the women's game. I came to like it because of the ethic of the players I coach, the solid team play and fundamentals that I see, etc. So when I see statements like the original, I feel compelled to respond that all girls ball is not like you make it sound in most of your posts (and you have made anti-girls ball posts in the past).

I do not expect you to ref girls ball if you don't like it. I just object to what I see as some compelling need to bring a negative attitude about the game every time you mention it. If I over-reacted, so be it. But I firmly believe that lack of support from the officiating side of the business is just as bad as lack of support in smoe schools and school districtss - it shortchanges some great athletes who play a great game.

So you wanted some reaction to see what others think - this is what I think!

I do not expect you to agree with me.
 

You can go on and on about what you have thought I have said in the past. The fact still remains, that I and many other officials have the right to our opinions about what we like to do. I do not have to like the same ice cream because YOU think it is the bomb. I do not have to where the same cloths because you think one type is more classy than another brand.

We all have choices and have opinions. And if you think what I said was "anti-girl," then again you have a right to your opinion. I personally do not care what you think. And the more you move up, the more you will have to choose, because the powers that be think enough of both to think that both games are completely different. You do not see Ed Hightower, Ted Hillary or Teddy Valentine doing Women's NCAA do you? Just like you do not see Patty Brodrick or the many male officials that do Women's NCAA doing both either. There is a reason, and I am sorry that you feel that anyone that chooses to make a comment against something, it has to be viewed in a larger context. I do not like umpiring softball compared to umpiring baseball, so are you going to give me a lecture about the gender issues surrounding that (BTW, I have done Men's Fast-Pitch Softball and I do not like that either)?

The Men's and boy's game is faster, more athletic and more intense. Because the reality is that women do not jump, run or are not as quick as boy's. When was the last time you saw a girl dunk in a real game, and it was not on TV (a Tennessee Player did that last year)? Now are the girls probably more fundamental on many levels, yes. But that still does not change the fact for me and many others like myself enjoy the game above the rim or as close to it as possible. I like the fact that just because the boys falls hard to the floor, no one is thinking, "oh you poor little fragile thing" everytime a boy hits the floor. People in this society are used to boys and men having contact in not just basketball, so the fans take all these sterotypes to the basketball court and expect you as an official to protect that clumbsy girl that tried to dribble thru 4 defenders stand still. If a boy does that, they tell him, "why are you taking on the team."

I am so sick and tired of officiating games with girls and a girl gets knocked down in some way, whether it be by a defender or not and start crying uncontrollably, but two seconds after she is helped off the court, she comes back in the game. You would have thought the sky just fell. But in a boy's game the same contact will happen, he will fall to the floor just as hard if not harder, and try to get himself up and still play. You have to almost force the boy to not play, while the girls you do not.

This statement is not so much about girls, but the way our society views women and the way women view themselves. And if that was not the case, then that is way I love having women coaches during girls games. At least they feel like they want to be there.

Everything I just said just scratches the surface about what I feel and many others feel about girls basketball. But the reality is that I will still be doing them to some extent, but I sure as hell will not be knocking down doors to do them. And I know that I am not the only one that feels this way. The thing is I said it and others did not have the guts to say it.

Maybe if I grew up watching girls basketball the way I watched or played basketball, I would probably have a different attitude. But when I have called 25 fouls in the first half of a girls basketball game, and both coaches are still crying about us calling more, girls basketball has a major problem with the way they precieve girls playing. I have never had that many fouls where at some point the coaches did not turn some of that attention on the players on the floor or adjust something to stop getting fouls called. And I am not talking about the touch foul variety, I am talking about the knocked completely to the floor type of fouls and the coaches complaining we still need to call much more.

If administrations cannot not hire coaches that are competent enough for girls basketball to realize what is really happening on the floor, then my behind needs to stay away from it. And that is because the most incompetent coaches are almost always on the girls side. And the reasons are because they do not hire coaches that have been around or paid their dues the way they do on the boy's side. Not very different from the officials that do the games too. And yes this included myself that did almost 60 girls varsity games in my SECOND year of basketball. And what made that so bad was that I was doing varsity girls games with other SECOND and THREE year officials. And when I did my first varsity boys games, I was always working with 5 or more year veterans. Now you tell me who cares about who the most and why it translates onto the court?


Peace

As I said above, we agree on most points, including your lack of desire to ref girls ball being valid. I do not question the reasons you offer in your most recent statements - there are clearly differences between NCAA men and women, differences between boys and girls at HS level in terms of athleticism, style of play, pace, etc. Every ref should decide what levels they wish to officiate - I may not have understood that two years ago when I first joined this board, but I clearly do now and accept it.

I also agree that the girls frequently receive second tier coaches, play with minimal game administration and fan support, and have parents that are afraid their baby will get hurt. I fight that last tendency as a girls AAU coach constantly, but I tell girls and parents repeatedly that high level basketball is a physical game and bodies will go flying and, at times, players will get injured (I have three players with broken bones, plus one badly sprained ankle and one sprained knee since September!). If they can't handle this aspect of the game, they need to find a non-contact sport!

My objection was merely to your representation initially that the girls game has no structured offense, etc, as well as your later statement that "Girls basketball in general stinks." I do not think that what you have said since making those statements is at all in agreement with those early statements, and I agree with most of what you say in your later posts. Girls ball at times stinks (so does boys, though probably not as often) and some girls teams are poorly coached,unorganized, etc - so was my son's boys middle school team (which was coached by a guy who knew the game but had not paid his dues either - maybe he will learn and move up). But girls basketball frequently does not stink and is very organized - it may not be what you want to ref, but that has to do with the athleticism, style, and pace of the game, not its quality.

I have never said you were anti girl, just anti girls ball, and I have seen little in your posts to change this opinion - so be it if we differ. However, I would never suggest that my son's school should not have a boys basketball program or that the boys learned nothing nor gained nothing from their experience, even though they probably looked as bad as the worst girls teams I have seen (except for the talent of the participants). It was some of the worst hoops I have ever seen, but having no program at all would have been far worse. You state a belief that Title IX created a large number of inferior basketball programs. I infer from much of what you said I your initial post about the weak team you saw that you believe that these programs should not exist. I believe they should exist and need to be improved.

I think that this is a fundamental difference that reflects your anti-girls basketball bias and my pro girls basketball bias. I should add that I came to girls ball thinking many of the same things you appear at times to think about the quality of play. I first swore that I would only stay until I got a good AAU boys team or a MS boys team. I have stayed because I found those early opinions to be wrong. Working with these kids has been great, and they have proven much more coachable than many (not all!) boys. On top of that, I am working in a great organization which provides terrific support.

We have a lot of new officials who may find the girls game very rewarding to officiate, and may decide that an early option for doing varsity ball is going the girls route. I presented the opposite point of view from some of the statements in your early posts (listed generally above). I believed (and continue to believe) that such statements do not reflect what is happening in girls basketball. I sincerely hope that the girls game can have more officials of the type who are serious enough to frequent these boards, as well as continue to improve the caliber of coaching across all districts. And if it is not for you, I am completely sincere in saying don't go near it, don't ever ref it - there are plenty of other options out there for you. But if you choose to ref a girls game here or there, please don't feel compelled to put it down by saying it "in general stinks."

[Edited by Hawks Coach on Dec 19th, 2001 at 05:30 PM]

Not that big of an issue.
 

If no one cares, the program should not excist. It does not matter if it is girls or boys. And if you read the ENTIRE statement, you will see that I was talking about only one of the programs. I was not talking about both programs. And I was mainly talking about Team B, who has a boys program that seems to be just as bad. And yes, I think the same about the boy's team.

You do not have to agree with me, I do not expect you to. Girls basketball (no matter where I have been) stinks compared to boy's games. I have a right to that opinion and it is just that, AN O.P.I.N.I.O.N!!! You may think it is the greatest thing since the invention of the wheel, I do not.

The reason I feel this way does not have everything to do with the participants, it is the entire package. The fans, bands, atmosphere, the intensity or anything else that makes the game enjoyable to officiate. It is not different in many ways of why I do not like doing Freshman or JV games that are not associated with a varsity game.

Look, we are just going to have to disagree on this one. I am sure you are a good coach and I am glad that you have a passion for the girls that you coach. But you have the right to coach which level you like and enjoy, just like I have the right to choose what is good for me.

We do not have officials now, mainly because they do not set parameters around this vocation in the first place. And if I am going to spend gas money or take time away from my job or other activities, I sure as hell would like to do it, doing something that I enjoy. Not going to a game I dread for the most part, because of all those things that surround it. And if officials were required to be on the same level at girls games than at boy's games, then I and my partners would not be thought of as the "greatest" officials that ever stepped on "their" court that year. And believe me, there is nothing special about the guys I work with or me, other than we do things the best way we know how. It is a shame that one side has such a big desparity in quality of officials and coaching across the board.

I stopped doing Pop Warner football, Men's fast-pitch softball, Summer baseball and softball all for simalar reasons that I stated about Girls basketball. And at least 3 of those were Male sports. So what now are you going to say to me, those do not stink either?

Peace

Re: Let me make myself clear.
 

Jeff --

Can you email me with the name of the assigner, teams and tourney? Thanks.

[email protected]

:)

You know something,
I think I would have known who submitted this post even if he hadn't indicated his name. It's funny how you get to know someone's character without seeing them work or ever having met them. Basketball is a great game and we should go out and try to enjoy every game we are assigned. I hope I never develop such a superior , arrogant attitude. So far after over 40 years in the game I still enjoy all levels of play and I have worked them all.
Pistol

I just got back from officiating a girls JV game and I had a blast. There was no stellar play. The crowd was sparse, but I had a great time. To give you an idea of the caliber of game it was, the score was 5 to 4 at halftime. The players all had good attitudes. The coaches were cordial and my partner did not wear jeans. My partner and I talked at half time about avoiding overtime at all costs. I said I would do everything in my power to prevent it. He said that he would do everything in his power to see that it happened. He said that he would keep calling lane violations until the girl made a FT to tie the score. I said if he did that, I would call a double lane violation and go with the arrow. I can honestly admit that I had more fun doing this game than I did doing the boys championship game in a Christmas tournament last weekend. If you have a bunch of people with bad attitudes and don't care about anything, that's their business. If you add another person(an official) that doesn't care, How is that helping anything?

I better not see any of it from you.
 

Well, I guess I am just arrogant. And if it is arrogant of me to question the motives of my ability or experience to be questioned, and to see an official on the court with BLACK JEANS officiating on of the games before you, then I am just going to be arrogant.

And first you are never going to know anything about my character, you have never met me and you have never worked with me. And considering that you and others like to spend your time judging people that you have never even seen, that shows me a lot about your character. Last time I checked, this is what this board was for. And if you CAN READ you would see most of the post are about beefs or complaints dealing with things that officials deal with on a regular basis. And I love reading them because it lets you know and realize that you are not alone when those things happen to you.

You can be high and mighty all day, but don't you not dare come hear and complain or ask questions about assignors, coaches, players or any number of things that my happen to you or that you might actually experience on the court. Because if you do, that would make you arrogant according to your definition.


Have a blessed holiday.

God Bless.

You have a right to your opinion, but......
 

If you go back and read the ENTIRE ORIGNAL POST, you would see the WHOLE POINT. I do not care what you enjoy or do not care how important the game is to you. If I did not care, I would have stopped birddoging, I would have walked up the floor, and I would have just let things go because the situation was so bad. Did you read anything that suggested that I did that? Did you read anything that I said that suggested that?

I did everything in the game that I would normally do, and I did not have a great time. If no one else wants to be there, it makes it really hard for me to get up for it myself. Sorry, I would rather save the gas money, the time fumbling through the Chicago area traffic, and rush from work so that I can go do a game that no one wants to be there, including the participants.

If you would read some of my following posts, you would see that as an official and umpire, I stopped doing Pop Warner Football, Men's Fast-Pitch Softball, and Summer Baseball and I am considering heavily in quiting Girls Basketball. All for different reasons but the same result. I do not enjoy doing them anymore. And even thought I might make more money doing all of them, it is not the draw to keep me doing them.

I stopped doing Pop Warner Football because the parents and coaches were so stupid, even when they would come up to you and ask a question, it would end up into a debate over how the TV (eg: 5 yard contact rule on reciever). And we would be using NF rules.

I stopped doing Men's Fast-Pitch Softball, because the arguments that would happen would be so stupid, I actually had debate with a team in the field over, and I quote: "the ground cannot cause a fumble," as it related to a Right Fielder bobbling a fly ball and finally not catching the ball. They would argue every little thing that happen regardless of how obvious the calls would be. I would make almost $400 doing those tourmanents and decided that I need to stay at home because it became not fun. I saw myself getting into fights instead of umpiring so I quit.

I stopped doing summer baseball, much for the same reason I stopped doing Men's Fast-Pitch. Do not get me wrong, the money is good, but the leagues and tournaments are not run very well. And you worry more about whether or not you are going to get paid, than whether or not you are going to do the game itself. So I passed on that. And also, Ido Football, Basketball and Baseball year-round. I like the time off and if I do anything in the summer I would rather be inside doing basketball.

I am considering stopping girls basketball, mainly because I do not enjoy it. You usually do not work with "quality" or experienced officials as you do for boys. The crowds are not as big usually and played on different nights as the boys. I would still only like to work about 3 times a week instead of 4-6 doing both. And most of all, the administrations do not have as many qualified coaches and those coaches do not have to pay their dues to get to do the highest level of high school ball. On Saturday (same tournament), the coach got so caught up in what I was doing, he stopped coaching his team. If he would have just double team the "superstar" player and stop worrying about what I was calling or what my partners were calling, he might have had a better chance to win the game. But he allowed his opponent to run a spread offense with this "superstar" guard who just days had a right up in the Chicago Tribune about her and 4 other small girl players, he might have let someone else score and beat them. But no, he let what the officials were doing influence what he did or not do as a coach.

The lesson in that, boys coaches tend to deal with much better officials across the board, and learn very quick that good officials do not give a damn how much they b!tch and complain about calls. His girls for several minutes had not meaningful instruction and inturn let the game get away from them.

When you leave the house wondering why you are going to be there, then it is time to leave it alone. I have been at that point for a very long time and talked myself out of it because of PC thinkers like yourself. Just like people that think I am crazy to go further than an hour for a game, I do not try to be critical about those that are not willing to do what I do. I think if you enjoy what you are doing, you need to be happy that is what you enjoy and not worry about what others think about it.

Peace