gps-3

[crew]

game play situation #3.
think high school rules.
blue team and white team are battling throughout the game blue is up 6 points, white has the ball late in the 4th qtr. white dribbles up the court, 10 on the game clock, passes and shoots a 3 pointer. basket is good and white immediately calls time out. 7 on the game clock. blue sets up with baseline priveledges throws the ball in to a1 at the top of the 3 point line. white needs to steal or foul. a1 catches the ball and white charges to foul. a1 drives to whites goal and lays the ball in and immediately grabs the ball and stands out of bounds for the throw in and time expires. blue wins by 1 point.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by crew
game play situation #3.
think high school rules.
blue team and white team are battling throughout the game blue is up 6 points, white has the ball late in the 4th qtr. white dribbles up the court, 10 on the game clock, passes and shoots a 3 pointer. basket is good and white immediately calls time out. 7 on the game clock. blue sets up with baseline priveledges throws the ball in to a1 at the top of the 3 point line. white needs to steal or foul. a1 catches the ball and white charges to foul. a1 drives to whites goal and lays the ball in and immediately grabs the ball and stands out of bounds for the throw in and time expires. blue wins by 1 point.

Sounds OK to me!Smart coach.White must have been out of TO's.

[Rev.Ref63]

The points would count for white team Rule:5.2.3 But, would the clock stop? See Case Book 5.2.3 The wording seems to imply a dead ball situation. IMO, the clock would stop to clarlfy with the scorer as to how to score the goal, then the ball be placed at blue's disposal with instructions that they may run the baseline. In essence, this would be the same as a quick score for white, and then giving them another shot at the steal under their own basket. ?????

[Bart Tyson]

Thats funny. These coaches can think of some tricky stuff.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by Rev.Ref63
The points would count for white team Rule:5.2.3 But, would the clock stop? See Case Book 5.2.3 The wording seems to imply a dead ball situation. IMO, the clock would stop to clarlfy with the scorer as to how to score the goal, then the ball be placed at blue's disposal with instructions that they may run the baseline. In essence, this would be the same as a quick score for white, and then giving them another shot at the steal under their own basket. ?????

Yes, the clock would stop because this is not a try for goal. the same theory would apply if A1 would have been fouled while shooting the ball into B's basket. It would not be a shooting foul, and the ball would have become dead at the time of the foul and the "basket" would not count.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Since Crew mixed his metaphors in describing the play let me rephrase it:

Team B is leading by six points. Team A has the ball and scores a three point field goal and immediately calls timeout. After the timeout Team B sets up for a throw-in with the right to run the endline with seven seconds on the clock. B1 inbounds the ball to B2 who is standing that the top of the key in Team B's backcourt. B2 catches the pass from B1 and immediately drives towards Team A's basket and throws a live ball throw Team A's basket (the ball enters the basket from above and goes completely through the basket) and then B2 takes the and stands out-of-bounds while the clock runs out.

I agree that NFHS (2001-02) Casebook Play 5.2.3 Situation applies to this play in as much as it confirms that B2 has just scored two points for Team A. But there is no reason for the officials to stop the game to clarify which team receives the points. B2's actions while somewhat suspect as far as sportsmanship is concerned, what B2 did is legal. To stop the clock at this point would nulify B2's ingenious play to end the game and insure Team B's victory.

I think that every official has at least one or two times a year at the jr. H.S. level where a player becomes confused and scores a field goal for his opponent. When it has happened to me I am concerned with only two things if B1 scored a field goal for Team A: 1) Does someone from Team B take possession of the ball for a throw-in, or 2) Does someone from Team A take possession of the ball for a throw-in? I would think that just everybody with basic knowledge of the rules of basketball understands that B1 an score a field goal for Team A. With that in mind, if (1) happens there is no need to stop the game, and if (2) happens, then the officials need to stop the game because B1's actions have caused confusion and the officials need to straighten out play.

[Rev.Ref63]

The wording in Case 5.2.3 "Two points are awarded to Team B. 'The ball is bounced to a player of Team A...'" This is what makes me suspect that the ball may be whistled dead.

Also, I haven't found where it is legal to intentionally shoot in the opponents goal. Please help because I just know this will happen to me the next game I call.

[Edited by Rev.Ref63 on Dec 15th, 2001 at 03:53 PM]

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Rev.Ref63
The wording in Case 5.2.3 "Two points are awarded to Team B. 'The ball is bounced to a player of Team A...'" This is what makes me suspect that the ball may be whistled dead.

Also, I haven't found where it is legal to intentionally shoot in the opponents goal. Please help because I just know this will happen to me the next game I call.

[Edited by Rev.Ref63 on Dec 15th, 2001 at 03:53 PM]

There's no rule prohibiting it, therefore throwing the ball in the other team's goal is legal.

From how I read the original situation, B2 tried to foul A1 but wasn't able to.

[Jurassic Referee]

Mark T.,I like your logic and I agree with it completely.Now,let's adjust the sitch a bit.What if one of the officials get's confused and blows his whistle while B is taking the ball OOB.You are sure going to have an irate B coach,but I don't think you now have any choice(by rule)except to give B the ball OOB,let him run the baseline,and not start the clock 'til the throw-in is touched in-bounds.In effect,your error just gave A an unfair advantage by stopping the clock.Thoughts on this?

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Mark T.,I like your logic and I agree with it completely.Now,let's adjust the sitch a bit.What if one of the officials get's confused and blows his whistle while B is taking the ball OOB.You are sure going to have an irate B coach,but I don't think you now have any choice(by rule)except to give B the ball OOB,let him run the baseline,and not start the clock 'til the throw-in is touched in-bounds.In effect,your error just gave A an unfair advantage by stopping the clock.Thoughts on this?

You're right - even an inadvertent whistle stops the clock and the clock can then only be re-started with a throw-in or missed FT.

[RecRef]

Originally posted by Rev.Ref63
The points would count for white team Rule:5.2.3 But, would the clock stop? See Case Book 5.2.3 The wording seems to imply a dead ball situation. IMO, the clock would stop to clarlfy with the scorer as to how to score the goal, then the ball be placed at blue's disposal with instructions that they may run the baseline. In essence, this would be the same as a quick score for white, and then giving them another shot at the steal under their own basket. ?????

A question to ask yourself, would you stop the clock if this took place in the 2nd quarter with 4 min on the clock? No! So why stop it now.

Also, what is the difference between this play and when B1 in the heat of rebounding mistakenly throws one up into the wrong basket?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Excellent point Rec Ref.

[rvoss]

This is my first time to post. Just thought I'd add a perspective from FIBA international rules regarding this case. I am an American who is a nationally certified referee in Japan, where rules at all levels are closely related to international rules. According to the FIBA rulebook 25.2.2 "If a player accidentally scores a field goal in his team's own basket, the points shall be recorded as scored by the captain of the opposing team." 25.2.3 "If a player deliberately scores a field goal in his teams's own basket, it is a violation and the goal does not count". Therefore, in international rules, such a play would give A team one more chance to score, taking away any advantage to such a strategy.

[Kelvin green]

Just to add another twist (and BTW I think they are right, the NBA has a provision that makes it illegal for a player to intentionally score in an opponents basket. It's a common sense rule from many fronts.
it prevents the unsportsmanlike behavior
it prevents a mockery of the game
it prevents point shaving

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by rvoss
According to the FIBA rulebook 25.2.2 "If a player accidentally scores a field goal in his team's own basket, the points shall be recorded as scored by the captain of the opposing team." 25.2.3 "If a player deliberately scores a field goal in his teams's own basket, it is a violation and the goal does not count".

I don't like this rule, simply because we then have to judge the intent of the player. As anyone who followed the 2000 election fiasco well knows, this is not an easy task.