Idea for refined definition and/or new mechanic

[Old School]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not know all the details of the difference but yes they do. If you get so many Flagrant 1 fouls they can be suspended if they have so many of these types of fouls. Flagrant 2 fouls are an ejection from the game they are participating in. Not sure if there is an automatic suspension or what it is.

Peace

This is totally wrong. In the NBA you can get suspended for excessive contact and not even have a foul called on the play. I think the Flagrant 1 and 2 is kind of ridiculous. Anything that has flagrant in it, should mean ejection, period. Since I do not work in the NBA I don't have to sweat that.

The intentional foul in HS and college is being used correctly, imo. I will say the Indirect Technicals in NCAA is completely out of control. It is an intentional foul to hold somebody before the ball is inbounded, it is an intentional foul for excessive contact. To add to what JRut is saying, every I/F call is going to be debated by the receiving coach. Everyone that I have called the receiving coach disagreed with, 100 out of 100 times. I think the OP is at the point in his career where he is beginning to understand this rule. Yes, it covers 2 cases, but only one signal, that's a good thing. I am not in the boat of adding more signals, it is still an I/F, and I don't care how many different mechanic signals you add to it. Two shots and the ball back at the POI.

[OHBBREF]

OS -While I am not in favor of adding more signals to the game -
Sifgnals are used to convey a message to the coaches, players, your partners, and fans as to what you have called.
So when a play grabs another player and the official gives the big "X" for intentional that is understood by all.
So now when you have a player chasing down another player on a breakaway and the defender blocks the shot but in the process wipes out the offensive player two rows into the stands and now you come up with an "X" based on excessive contact - people (and Dick Vitale, and Billy Packer) will say the foul was flagrant, and be confused when the player is not removed from the game because they are unaware of the excessive contact clause of the rule, and become confused?

The addition of a secondary signal would be effective in such cases.

as to your statement regarding Indirect Technicals being out of hand in 20 plus NCAA dates this year on the floor, 8 more as an alternate, plus 25 to 30HS or Prep-Scool games I was involved with not a one Intnetional Technical called, add another 100 pluss games watched and that number stays at 0.

The only one I have seen was last weekend when a player measured another up for an Elbow before the ball was at the disposal on an inbound play during an AAU game.
I do not see a trend in that direction can you back that up with some facts or stats?

[Old School]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

as to your statement regarding Indirect Technicals being out of hand in 20 plus NCAA dates this year on the floor, 8 more as an alternate, plus 25 to 30HS or Prep-Scool games I was involved with not a one Intnetional Technical called, add another 100 pluss games watched and that number stays at 0.

I have the reason for this, nobody, I mean nobody wants to go there in the NCAA, because it's so complex. A better point might be, how many indirect technical fouls can you call in the NCAA and how many different penalities come in to play from this. Add to that, who is accessed what, and how many different technical fouls versus regular fouls, versus indirect fouls leads to an ejection.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by OHIOBBREF

as to your statement regarding Indirect Technicals being out of hand in 20 plus NCAA dates this year on the floor, 8 more as an alternate, plus 25 to 30HS or Prep-Scool games I was involved with not a one Intnetional Technical called, add another 100 pluss games watched and that number stays at 0.

let me add I do not recall a situation where one needed to be called either.

Originally Posted by Old School

I have the reason for this, nobody, I mean nobody wants to go there in the NCAA, because it's so complex. A better point might be, how many indirect technical fouls can you call in the NCAA and how many different penalities come in to play from this. Add to that, who is accessed what, and how many different technical fouls versus regular fouls, versus indirect fouls leads to an ejection.

I have an end of season review and film session mid next week with another group of officials and I will bring this up - but IMO at the NCAA level if it needs to be called it is called.
The last thing that people worry about is technical fouls versus regular fouls, versus indirect fouls, or ejections.
I had a partner whack the conference commissioner in a game this year.
You do what you have to do.