Self bat

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Exactly. And grabbing the ball also ends a dribble, as per 4-15-4(a). In the original post, that's exactly what the dribbler did--->grabbed the ball. Iow, he legally ended his dribble by grabbing it.

What violation did he commit by grabbing it, if he didn't dribble again or travel?

The violation is an illegal dribble.

Again, the rule says:

"4-15-ART. 2 . . . During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is
permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s)."

What does provided mean? It means "if" or "on the condition". That says that the player may bat the ball into the air IF (on the condition) they permit it to strike the floor before they touch it. It doesn't qualify the type of touch. The condition covers catching, dribbling, batting, tapping, etc.....all forms of touching. If they don't permit it to strike the floor after batting it into the air, they have violated 4-15-2....which is part of the definition of a legal dribble. Hence, it is an illegal dribble.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The violation is an illegal dribble.

Again, the rule says:

"4-15-ART. 2 . . . During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is
permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s)."

What does provided mean? It means "if" or "on the condition". That says that the player may bat the ball into the air IF (on the condition) they permit it to strike the floor before they touch it. It doesn't qualify the type of touch. The condition covers catching, dribbling, batting, tapping, etc.....all forms of touching. If they don't permit it to strike the floor after batting it into the air, they have violated 4-15-2....which is part of the definition of a legal dribble. Hence, it is an illegal dribble.

You left out the most important part - during a dribble. The dribble ends when he picks up the ball to shoot it. IMO, we're doing the same thing here (on a double touch) as when a player clearly picks up the ball, then bounce passes it to a teammate. We wait to see if it's a pass or the start of another dribble.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

when a player clearly picks up the ball, then bounce passes it to a teammate. We wait to see if it's a pass or the start of another dribble.

That is not the issue here. If a player has ended his dribble, then throws the ball toward a teammate, then for whatever reason, goes and catches it himself, it is an illegal dribble whether it hits the floor first or not.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by just another ref

That is not the issue here. If a player has ended his dribble, then throws the ball toward a teammate, then for whatever reason, goes and catches it himself, it is an illegal dribble whether it hits the floor first or not.

Agreed, but the point is the same - sometimes we need to wait to see what the outcome of the entire play is before we can call a violation.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

You left out the most important part - during a dribble. The dribble ends when he picks up the ball to shoot it. IMO, we're doing the same thing here (on a double touch) as when a player clearly picks up the ball, then bounce passes it to a teammate. We wait to see if it's a pass or the start of another dribble.

The "during" is only refering to the time of the bat, nothing else. The though has no such restriction...it's simply a touch....either during the dribble or ending it.

[Ref in PA]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The violation is an illegal dribble.

Again, the rule says:

"4-15-ART. 2 . . . During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is
permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s)."

What does provided mean? It means "if" or "on the condition". That says that the player may bat the ball into the air IF (on the condition) they permit it to strike the floor before they touch it. It doesn't qualify the type of touch. The condition covers catching, dribbling, batting, tapping, etc.....all forms of touching. If they don't permit it to strike the floor after batting it into the air, they have violated 4-15-2....which is part of the definition of a legal dribble. Hence, it is an illegal dribble.

So, if A1 is standing still, dribbling the ball and bats the ball up in the air and catches it, ending the dribble, it is a violation? 4.15.4 E (a) seems to indicate you can toss/bat the ball to yourself while not moving the pivot feet - therefore, touching the ball as you describe above would be legal if the pivot feet were not moved. Therefore, your logical argument has a flaw. 4-15-2 applies only when the ball strikes the floor after the second touch. If the ball never touches the floor again, 4-15-2 cannot be applied.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Ref in PA

So, if A1 is standing still, dribbling the ball and bats the ball up in the air and catches it, ending the dribble, it is a violation?

Yes...by 4-15-2...illegal dribble. A carry is also still a carry if the player's feet are stationary.

Originally Posted by Ref in PA

4.15.4 E (a) seems to indicate you can toss/bat the ball to yourself while not moving the pivot feet - therefore, touching the ball as you describe above would be legal if the pivot feet were not moved.

It does say that holding the ball, tossing it up, and catching it....all without moving the feet, is OK. It doesn't talk about actions that are during dribble. It even says that these actions are NOT part of a legal dribble.

Originally Posted by Ref in PA

Therefore, your logical argument has a flaw. 4-15-2 applies only when the ball strikes the floor after the second touch. If the ball never touches the floor again, 4-15-2 cannot be applied.

That makes no sense at all. It says absolutely nothing about what happens after the 2nd touch. It might or might not touch the floor again. It has no relevance.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Yes...by 4-15-2...illegal dribble.

WHAT??? A player standing there dribbling bats the ball into the air and catches it without moving his feet and you will call an illegal dribble? For ending his dribble? I really don't get that...if he bats it into the air, catches it and then dribbles again, great...but no way do you all an illegal driblle for ENDING his dribble...

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

WHAT??? A player standing there dribbling bats the ball into the air and catches it without moving his feet and you will call an illegal dribble? For ending his dribble? I really don't get that...if he bats it into the air, catches it and then dribbles again, great...but no way do you all an illegal driblle for ENDING his dribble...

I was with M&M and Camron until this question came up, and now I'm on the other side.

I think the highly referenced 4-15-2 could be worded this way to make more sense...."During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is permitted to strike the floor before the dribbler can continue that dribble."

That said, to catch the ball after the bat is legal, but to touch the ball after the bat in an effort to continue the dribble, before it hits the floor is a violation.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

I was with M&M and Camron until this question came up, and now I'm on the other side.

I think the highly referenced 4-15-2 could be worded this way to make more sense...."During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is permitted to strike the floor before the dribbler can continue that dribble."

That said, to catch the ball after the bat is legal, but to touch the ball after the bat in an effort to continue the dribble, before it hits the floor is a violation.

Well, if that's what you want to accomplish, then the wording should be changed. However, the wording clearly says the ball cannot be touched after the first bat into the air, and before the ball is permitted to hit the ground. Touching certainly includes another bat, a catch, a tip, etc. In my opinion, the rule is there to prohibit multiple touches in between the ball hitting the floor during a dribble. In the OP, the catch is the second touch before the ball hits the floor.

So, the obvious, extreme example would be where A1 taps the ball over B1, runs around and taps the ball again over B2, gets to it and taps it over B3, all without the ball ever hitting the ground. Anyone see that as a legal play? Of course not, due to 4-15-2. You cannot say the taps ever ended the dribble, because it does not meet any of the criteria in 4-15-4. And, if the dribble never ended, you cannot call it a travelling violation, because you cannot travel during a dribble. So what made it an illegal dribble? The second touch before it was allowed to hit the ground.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

In my opinion, the rule is there to prohibit multiple touches in between the ball hitting the floor during a dribble. In the OP, the catch is the second touch before the ball hits the floor.

Yup, I agree with that.

Unfortunately, that hasn't got anything to do with ending a dribble. If the ball doesn't hit the floor, you don't have a "during the dribble". The dribble ended!

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Well, if that's what you want to accomplish, then the wording should be changed. However, the wording clearly says the ball cannot be touched after the first bat into the air, and before the ball is permitted to hit the ground. Touching certainly includes another bat, a catch, a tip, etc. In my opinion, the rule is there to prohibit multiple touches in between the ball hitting the floor during a dribble. In the OP, the catch is the second touch before the ball hits the floor.

So, the obvious, extreme example would be where A1 taps the ball over B1, runs around and taps the ball again over B2, gets to it and taps it over B3, all without the ball ever hitting the ground. Anyone see that as a legal play? Of course not, due to 4-15-2. You cannot say the taps ever ended the dribble, because it does not meet any of the criteria in 4-15-4. And, if the dribble never ended, you cannot call it a travelling violation, because you cannot travel during a dribble. So what made it an illegal dribble? The second touch before it was allowed to hit the ground.

So then I guess you are saying then is that if a dribbler bats the ball up in the air, that he can legally, only 'hover' close to the ball and wait for it to hit the floor and hope someone else doesn't grab it first. That, in itself, seems suspect, IMO.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

WHAT??? A player standing there dribbling bats the ball into the air and catches it without moving his feet and you will call an illegal dribble? For ending his dribble? I really don't get that...if he bats it into the air, catches it and then dribbles again, great...but no way do you all an illegal driblle for ENDING his dribble...

Exactly.

An unrelated rule/case (traveling) says that a player holding the ball can toss the ball into the air and catch it as long as the pivot foot doesn't move. If the pivot foot does move, it is traveling. This rule has no relationship to what is or is not a legal dribble.

Rule 4-15-2 quite clearly says the dribbler can, during a dribble, bat it into the air but that if they do they may not touch it again until after it has bounced. There are no exceptions for the situation where the "touch" ends the dribble. The mere touch itself is the violation.

I'm really puzzled about why this is so hard to get. The grammar in 4-15-2 is not that complicated.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Ref in PA

So, if A1 is standing still, dribbling the ball and bats the ball up in the air and catches it, ending the dribble, it is a violation?

Nope.

4-15-2 applies only when the ball strikes the floor after the second touch. If the ball never touches the floor again, 4-15-2 cannot be applied.

Yup.